scenario #7 something different

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Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on November 9, 2008 at 9:57pm

You're right. The way I would answer these questions may not be the way my department would handle this fire. As far as supervision of strategically-sensitive areas, I'd like to have a command level officer for the building of origin, one for both exposures, and one on the roof. Finally, there would be an overall I.C. Now, in reality my department would strike a second alarm fairly quickly for this scenario which would bring a call back Deputy Chief. If it was during a weekday you'd probably get some of the staff officers on scene to assist. If this fire really started taking off in the cockloft, we would definitely go to a third alarm which calls back all off-duty personnel. Unfortunately, we don't have enough command staff to safely manage all the personnel and maintain good accountability once we do strike a third alarm.

The first line would cover the outside of the Delta exposure, the second would be a 2 1/2" into the top floor of exposure Bravo to hopefully cut off the fire in the cockloft, and a third to the original occupancy. However, before committing the line to the Bravo exposure I'd really like to know if the fire has already overrun the first Bravo exposure. If it has, I'd have the line stretched to an uninvolved Bravo exposure (Bravo 1 or 2). This sounds like a whole lot of fire, so I'd choose 2 1/2" lines.

At the roof I would hope there would be the sounds of saws working! First get a h*** as close as possible over the seat of the fire, and depending on conditions, consider a trench cut next. This is really going to be the key to beating this fire which is why I would want a chief on the roof.

The RIT in my department would assemble the proper tools near the command post and probably put up some ground ladders. The officer would be monitoring radio traffic for "mayday" signals.

The ops in the three story exposure would be to evacuate any occupants, remove flammable objects near the windows (curtains, blinds, etc) and monitor the second and third floors for extention with lines (1 3/4") stretched to each floor.

In the attached exposure I'd have a 2 1/2" line stretched to the second floor. I'd try to determine whether I was being overrun (excessive heat buildup and thick, zero visibility smoke). If I haven't been overrun I'd pull the ceilings as soon as the roof was opened up. I would try to wait for the roof to be opened so the fire wouldn't blow down on the crews operating on the second floor.

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on December 23, 2008 at 3:52pm

my answers to scenario #7

1. Interior (or some of you might call it operations) division supervisor in fire bldg -- should be a chief. Assign a div sup. to bravo exposure -- again should be a chief but will probably be a company officer initially -- someone has to get there fast to assess conditions and coordinate the area. Ladder officer as roof div. sup. might also be a chief later on as roof ops will be relatively personnel-heavy. Need a div sup in delta exposure as well -- chief is best but a CO you can trust is OK if u have no other chief. The point is -- don;t let the chiefs hang out at the CP -- put them to work supervising the areas where your concerns are
2. lines
#1 -- 1-3/4" or 2" to 2nd flr of fire bldg
#2 -- same size, same diamter to same place as back-up -- this is the "test" answer. Need to get one there ASAP if it not the 2nd line
#3 -- top floor bravo exposure -- 1-3/4" -- to stop extension -- might need two lines here depending on conditions
#4 -- 2-1/2" line to wash wall of Delta exposure -- this might actually be line #2 if exposure is really threatened upon arrival (or already lighting off) -- might also use a deck gun here isfu have a continuous water supply -- if you don't, don't do this until you do
#5 -- interior of delta exposure (top floor unless conditions dictate otherwise) to stop extension into bldg -- will probably need a second line here too to the 2nd floor
By the way, if u r not thinking of establishing 2 water supplies and postioning for a third, you might be caught short in this situation

3. Roof level -- recon all sides and shaft / open naturals on roof / coordinate top floor horizontal vent with attack crews / cut roof over area of most involvement -- use TIC to help you pinpoint that spot / push the ceiling down and open the returns to vent the cockloft / also recon roof of B exposure for cockloft involvement. issue progress amd condition reports to command asap and at regular intervals / communicate and coordinate with other divisions

4. report to CP / stage tools on RIC tarp / assess conditions / raise ground ladders to top floor of fire bldg and exposures and to roof as secondary means of egress / light up area / create egress poinst around bldg as needed / monitor transmissions

5. 3 story exp: establish supervision / exterior lines on outside walls to stop heat build-up, don't forget soffit if it is combustible (usually when peaked roof is present) / line inside to stop interior extension / search and evac / close windows, remove combustustibles, vent other side to dissipate heat / shut utilities as needed

6. attached exp ops: establish supervision / search and evac / line inside to 2nd floor to stop extension / pull ceilings / check cockloft by oprning naturals on roof / cut as needed / in shaft -- close windows, remove combustustibles, vent other side to dissipate heat / shut utilities as needed / coordinate with other divisions

in all areas -- relieve and rotate personnel as required

Permalink Reply by Noel Marti on September 26, 2009 at 12:13pm

1. Fire control will require a significant amount of personnel. How would you handle this fire in regard to supervision of strategically-sensitive areas? How would your departent handle it? (might not be the same answer, right?) Do you get enough command officers and if so, what is normally done with them?

This seems to be a very labor intensive fire due to all the issues at hand. I'm thinking 3 or maybe even 4 alarm fire by the time we are done with it. I would handle the strategically-sensitive areas by making sure I do not exceed the span of control. I would do this by assigning division officers to take care of the tasks at hand. Since this will take time to set up, my fear would be the continuos spread of the fire. My department is only a 4 station department so we would definitely be using mutual-aid on this fire. In my department we would have enough command officers (the white wave :-)). If I were in command initially I would probably have the first one to arrive to assume the Safety Officer position. That is assuming that I would stay in command because if not then he would take command. I would use the other command officers as my division/section officers and command staff.

2. Where would you stretch lines? In what order? What size would they be?
If there is a stairwell to the D side of the structure, I would begin there with a 1 3/4" line (for mobility) for initial attack, I would have a second attack line (2 1/2") to the fire floor as a back up coming from the same side. I would then have an engine with a deck gun protect Exposure D. Depending on the report I receive from the attack group I may and most probably will deploy a third attack line (2 1/2"). Since the fire is coming from the A and D side, I am assuming the it is in multiple rooms along with the fact that it is in the cockloft noted by the heavy smoke on the opposite end of the building.

3. What should be happening at the roof level?
Vertical ventilation and consider a trench cut.

4. What would your RIC team be doing at this fire on your dept?
Looking for secondary means of egress, setting up ladders when found and reporting their location to command.

5. What ops would you be conducting in the 3 story exposure?
Evacuation first then having a crew investigate for possible extension.

6. What ops would you be conducting in the attached exposure?
Since there are stores on the first floor and having common shafts, I would need to have a crew check the most adjacent structure first and identify any hazards along with extension from the fire. Evacuation first of course.

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on September 26, 2009 at 6:48pm

your ops are good. Command is faced with lots of issues here so you will need alotta personnel. I would stay away from the trench cut b/c it would take too long to make. Better to cut a bigger h*** over the fire building. In addition, don't forget to not only evac exposed structures as you said, but don't forget to get lines inside the attached exposure to the top floor and inside the unattached one (with a 2-1/2" line to protect the combustible exterior wall) You must act as if fire is already inside and then if it is not, you are still there with suppression cpability. If u thinnk it is not, chances are it will be B4 you have had a chance to act. Good work
Be safe


Noel Marti said:

1. Fire control will require a significant amount of personnel. How would you handle this fire in regard to supervision of strategically-sensitive areas? How would your departent handle it? (might not be the same answer, right?) Do you get enough command officers and if so, what is normally done with them?

This seems to be a very labor intensive fire due to all the issues at hand. I'm thinking 3 or maybe even 4 alarm fire by the time we are done with it. I would handle the strategically-sensitive areas by making sure I do not exceed the span of control. I would do this by assigning division officers to take care of the tasks at hand. Since this will take time to set up, my fear would be the continuos spread of the fire. My department is only a 4 station department so we would definitely be using mutual-aid on this fire. In my department we would have enough command officers (the white wave :-)). If I were in command initially I would probably have the first one to arrive to assume the Safety Officer position. That is assuming that I would stay in command because if not then he would take command. I would use the other command officers as my division/section officers and command staff.

2. Where would you stretch lines? In what order? What size would they be?
If there is a stairwell to the D side of the structure, I would begin there with a 1 3/4" line (for mobility) for initial attack, I would have a second attack line (2 1/2") to the fire floor as a back up coming from the same side. I would then have an engine with a deck gun protect Exposure D. Depending on the report I receive from the attack group I may and most probably will deploy a third attack line (2 1/2"). Since the fire is coming from the A and D side, I am assuming the it is in multiple rooms along with the fact that it is in the cockloft noted by the heavy smoke on the opposite end of the building.

3. What should be happening at the roof level?
Vertical ventilation and consider a trench cut.

4. What would your RIC team be doing at this fire on your dept?
Looking for secondary means of egress, setting up ladders when found and reporting their location to command.

5. What ops would you be conducting in the 3 story exposure?
Evacuation first then having a crew investigate for possible extension.

6. What ops would you be conducting in the attached exposure?
Since there are stores on the first floor and having common shafts, I would need to have a crew check the most adjacent structure first and identify any hazards along with extension from the fire. Evacuation first of course.

Permalink Reply by JAMES REGELING on October 17, 2009 at 10:53pm

THE PREFERRED POSITIONS WITH SUPERVISION WOULD BE I.C., ROOF OPERATIONS, D ELTA &BRAVO EXPOSURE OPERATIONS, SAFETY OFFICER & FIRE ATTACK OPERATIONS IN FIRE BUILDING.

IN MY DEPARTMENT WOULD MOST LIKELY HAVE IN THE INITIAL ALARM CHIEF FOR I.C., ASST. CHIEF OF FIRE ATTACK FIRE BUILDING & ACCOUNTABILITY FOR INTERIOR PERSONNEL. CAPTAIN FOR ROOF OPS, CAPTAIN/LT FOR EXP BRAVO & EXP DELTA, CHIEF OR EX-CHIEF AS SAFETY OFFICER.

MY INITIAL CALL WOULD BE FOR MUTUAL AID FOR MAN POWER & A RIC TEAM, MY INITIAL LINE WOULD BE A 2 1/2 TO THE EXP D, AN ADDITIONAL 2 1/2 TO 2ND FLR BUILDING OF ORIGIN TO FIND THE SEAT OF THE FIRE, THEN TO THE ROOF FOR A H*** OVER THE FIRE & TO TRY TRENCH CUT IF POSSIBLE TO GET AHEAD OF THE FIRE IN THE COCKLOFT. THEN ADDITIONAL TEAMS WITH A 2 1/2 TO EVACUATE & AND CHECK FOR EXTENSION IN EXP BRAVO STARTING 2 UNITS AWAY TO SEE IF FIRE IS IN THE COCKLOFT ABOVE THAT UNIT WORKING WITH THE ROOF TEAM DOING THE TRENCH CUT & EXP DELTA TO EVACUATE & CHECK FOR EXTENSION WITH AN 1 3/4 LINE.

RIC TEAM WOULD SET UP LADDERS AND NEAR SIDE ALPHA OF THE STRUCTURE LISTENING TO COMMUNICATIONS.