Planning For water supply & Transport

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jeff Clayton on January 27, 2009 at 1:33pm

Wayne...Is this the Dalhousie University program? Is the golf course clubhouse going up again?
I think it's a commonly used series of formulas on the east coast of Canada...if we're talking about the same program.

We don't use it (to my knowledge) in Brampton, however, I do still have contacts in Nova Scotia who use it in their volunteer services for the preplanning of the major structures and high risk structures that they protect. It allows them to decide who they're going to need for mutual-aid and have an 'auto-aid' response made up for the neighbouring departments.

Take care,
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on January 27, 2009 at 1:55pm

Yes sir it is the club house again.. Thanks for the info.

Jeff Clayton said:

Wayne...Is this the Dalhousie University program? Is the golf course clubhouse going up again?
I think it's a commonly used series of formulas on the east coast of Canada...if we're talking about the same program.

We don't use it (to my knowledge) in Brampton, however, I do still have contacts in Nova Scotia who use it in their volunteer services for the preplanning of the major structures and high risk structures that they protect. It allows them to decide who they're going to need for mutual-aid and have an 'auto-aid' response made up for the neighbouring departments.

Take care,
Jeff

Permalink Reply by Jeff Clayton on January 27, 2009 at 2:13pm

No problem...

I found the course to be directed at the people side of the business, I was looking to learn command structure, IMS, and that sort of thing. That being said I did get a lot of knowledge from the program...and the clubhouse was probably the portion I put the most thought into trying to come up with the perfect solution...

Take care

Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on February 6, 2009 at 5:49pm

Q. Who uses it?
A. Fire service professors
Maybe you should ask a question of your own.
Q. When was the last time you rode on a fire truck?.
Good Luck

Permalink Reply by Tom Hofland on February 9, 2009 at 6:21pm

Flow formulas seem to be best suited for proving that our tactics work.

150-180 gpm from a 1 3/4" line...

Iowa formula (v/100) will put out 900 square feet of fire. (That's an undivided, 30x30 room, fully involved!) Of course you have to use a indirect attack, or it won't work...

NFA formula (A/3 for the attack AND backup lines) will put out 900 square feet of fire. Of course you have to use a direct attack, or it wont work...

Tactical Flow Rate (0.15 gpm/sq ft) will put out 1000 square feet of fire. Of course you have to use a pulsing, 3D attack, or it wont work...

ISO Sprinkler calc. (0.15 gpm/sq ft) will put out 1000 square feet. Of course you have to deflect it off the ceiling, or it wont work...

So what your saying is a 1 3/4" line flowing 150 gpm will put out a house fire and is what we should pull?

And any commercial space worth anything has a compartment larger than the 1000 square feet mentioned above. So a single 260-300 gpm line will put out about twice the above. Or around 2000 square feet of fire. Hey thats what FDNY and Vinny Dunn have been saying long before NFA and TFR... No Kidding...

If we just stretch, pump, and operate multiple lines flowing 150 at house fires and 300 at commercials well stand the best chance of putting it out.

As for water supply? Well lets pull three lines at house fires. 2 on the fire floor and one to cover the floor above, Hmm thats about 500 gpm for the duration.

And lets pull 3 lines at a larger commercial. If 1000 gpm interior direct attack (the max allowed for by NFA) is unable to rapidly knock down 4000-5000 sq ft of fire (That's a 100x100 10,000 sq ft open floor building 50% involved!) we should not be in an offensive mode. Crazy - but both Iowa and TFR formulas acknowledge that indirect and pulsing attacks are not appropriate for large open areas (commercial fires) and a direct attack should be used due to stream reach... weird. And the ISO specifies that it aplies only to a pre-flashover growth stage fires. You mean like less than 50% room involvement? Well i guess I'll have to stop conducting interior attacks on post flashover warehouses now.

So lets plan on the need to support about 1000 gpm for the duration of an interior attack on a commercial fire.

Lets know how to get, pump and flow 150 gpm, 300 gpm, 500 gpm and 1000 gpm. Your friction loss chart should be simple and line selection more so. Of course if you go defensive or have exposures you may need more water.

Hey defensive fires get 2 1/2" lines flowing 300 gpm (3 = 1000) and heavy appliances flowing... 1000 gpm. It almost works out, if only we could take a class to make it harder.

Note: you have to know how NFA estimates attack line needs not total fire flow needs to get the above numbers and Iowa has a max flow rate (100 gpm) and coverage area (roughly 900 sq ft) for a single line.

Tom