New discussion on coordination on the fire ground

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on November 23, 2008 at 4:39pm

After watching this clip, I watched it again to make sure I saw things correctly. Ventilation is performed, not properly , but performed. Roof ventilalation appears to be damage only. Just from the clip, not enough members are operating to be used effectively, much less a search performed. Had the scene been handled differently an 1 3/4 might have been adequete. The roof needs to be opened first. "Pop the top", that will get all that crap up and out and assist in suppression efforts. If the roof is open leave the front window alone. Charge the hoseline before entering the structure. Officers have to talk on a fireground. Whether you're a truck officer or an engine officer, communication is critical to the fireground to keep all members operating safe.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 23, 2008 at 6:36pm

Jeff
You mention the job might be done better but I'm always asking for specifics on the page so what would you ave done to get on this job? We 've had some discussion on size up and coordination what specifically would you do in reference to these ideas on this fire? After seeing the video, do you think the line was placed corectly? If you as the IC or officer on the scene how would a change in hose line placement change how the venting would need to be coordinated?
Jeff Schwering said:

After watching this clip, I watched it again to make sure I saw things correctly. Ventilation is performed, not properly , but performed. Roof ventilalation appears to be damage only. Just from the clip, not enough members are operating to be used effectively, much less a search performed. Had the scene been handled differently an 1 3/4 might have been adequete. The roof needs to be opened first. "Pop the top", that will get all that crap up and out and assist in suppression efforts. If the roof is open leave the front window alone. Charge the hoseline before entering the structure. Officers have to talk on a fireground. Whether you're a truck officer or an engine officer, communication is critical to the fireground to keep all members operating safe.

Permalink Reply by Doug Ott on November 23, 2008 at 8:22pm

I'm not the smartest person when it comes to tactics so I'm mostly posting this to get everyone's comments to see if I'm on the right track.

I would've taken the hoseline in the front door as they had, only it would be charged. We use Task Force Tips fog nozzles on 2 of our attack lines and they seem to do a great job as we pump them for a minimum of 150 gpm on an 1-3/4. We have an additional 1-3/4 with a SabreJet combination fog/solid bore (with all due respect to Akron, I think I'd rather have a standard solid bore instead). Our largest attack line is a 2" with a TFT. I would have the basement windows and exterior basement door (if present) opened. I would also have the front window of the half-story laddered and taken out and cleared. If there is a rear window on the half-story then the same treatment would be given to that one as well. The hoseline would be taken to the interior stairs that lead to the basement if conditions allowed, if not then attack through the exterior basement door. The second hose-line would follow the first but be in position to protect the interior stairs while a team performed the primary search. Hopefully everything goes as planned and everyone goes home. I think with the staffing level in the district for which I am lucky to work, this is do-able.

I still haven't been sold on performing roof ventilation on basement fires. I'm more comfortable using the windows instead if they are of adequate number and size. From what I saw that appeared to be an older structure. If the fire hasn't entered the wall space then by opening the roof and the rafter space it just seems you'd be inviting the fire to travel up that way instead of out a basement opening.

It seemed that by opening up that front window the way they did without water flowing on the fire from the interior basement stairs that they brought the fire up to them. I think I would've left that window intact and take my chances with taking out the upper ones.

That's all I'm going to blabber out for now. Let me know what you think. I have a lot to learn and am really enjoying this site.

Thank you all and stay safe,

Doug

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on November 23, 2008 at 9:09pm

The placement of the line I think was correct, but charged would be a good thing. Make sure adequete resources or on the scene or on the way. Coordinate the ventilation and the attack. After being involved in a similar situation, with no communication when a company vented on their own, I have a pet peeve about communication. This did appear to be a well involved dwelling fire not fully involved as the chief said. An 1 3/4 can put out a lot of fire. Locate, Contine, extinghuish, and salvage.This looks like a "bread and butter" fire, but the lack of communication on this fire or any fire could lead to a bad outcome.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 24, 2008 at 3:28pm

-Hi Jeff. One of the things I really notice many people are confusing, and I'm not implying you are, is that coordination doesn't mean simultaneous. It means companies are talking to each other and reacting properly and supporting the others efforts.
-For ventilation, specifically in the video clip, to be effect, it should have occurred BEFORE the line made entry. It would have been very easy for one of the firefighters to vent the large main window from the outside before they entered and thereby have created a safe and more conducive environment to work in.
-Jim, in asking for specifics, one that I hoped someone would have picked up on is, when venting the window, take ALL the glass. If you are going to break the window then break it all and don't cheat yourself out of 50% of the ventilation potential as happened in the clip. How about breaking a few more of those windows that are well within reach and thereby get a little more aggressive about ventilation.
-Tom Brennen said that ventilation is probably the single most definitive action we can perform on the fireground to assist a trapped victim short of actually making a rescue.
-In my opinion, the roof venting was to late to be very effective and was nothing more then damage to a relatively sound roof at that point. It also made me wonder why someone wanted to cut the roof on a cellar fire particularly in an occupancy that is not obviously a balloon frame.
-Manpower is clearly a real issue for this situation. There don't appear to be enough firefighters on scene and that limits what can be accomplished. Thats why I mentioned the search. Did it get done? I don't know. The chief said so at the end, but was it timely enough to matter?
-And speaking of the chief, I take acute notice of personnel operating on the fireground in an unsafe manner, in the hazard zone that do not have gear on. If an individual is going into the action area they must have ALL of their gear on; even the chief who should lead by example. Consider the strapped nature of manpower in this clip. The chief in a manpower deficient scene man be called upon to act in an urgent rescue or mayday situation.
-And what about a R.I.C., especially in a cellar fire? Are they on scene? Are they on the way?
-Lastly, I mentioned the size of the line simply to get people to think about hose size selection. Could a larger line (2 1/2) made a difference? Maybe... Probably. I agree with you Jeff; given what was showing the line should have been charged prior to entry.
-Personally, I believe and have seen to many firefighters, officers and chiefs acting on autopilot and end up stretching or ordering the stretch of the 1 3/4 simply because thats what they always do. Bad decisions have been reenforced by good luck.
-The old proverb I remember is that, "If the fire has control of more than two residential size rooms, or is of an undetermined size and location, or is in a commercial occupancy then the 2 1/2 hand line is the proper line to stretch".
If a second line is called for then it should be a 2 1/2 line. Notice I didn't say A BACK UP LINE. There is a difference.
Many firefighters believe that they can knock down more fire using the 1 3/4 than they really can. In fact what they did was contain the fire while the fire used up all consumable fuel and then self extinguished. If you're not moving forward, you're not making progress and you're not knocking the fire down. As John Norman says, you either need more water, more ventilation or both.
-The point of selecting the video wasn't to pick on anyone but rather to point out what happens in situations where manpower is very short in comparison with the actions needed as well as delays in tasks. Some inappropriate tasks can also be teaching points too.
-Stay safe, Michael

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on November 24, 2008 at 5:39pm

Hi Micheal, I completely agree with you, coordination does not mean simultaneous. Talk/communicate and work together, to provide a positive outcome. I definately agree with the second line being a 2 1/2, if no progress was being made with a charged 1 3/4. Inappropriate tasks are the basis of company officer trainings. We teach our guys and gals to think on their feet, take a breath, then take the correct action to accomplish the task at hand. Sorry I sounded a bit aggravated in my last post, that past incident was one for close calls, thankfully we all got out with just warm behinds.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on November 24, 2008 at 8:57pm

Doug
We're all on the same team here and none of us are experts.

I like what you say when you would go in the outside entrance to get to the basement fire. It looks like the fire is down there. This would get us down into the basement below the heat on the basemnet ceiling before we enter that level.

How about the venting plan. Would you skip the 1st floor and move the open ing of windows on the second floor?
Do you think the fire might travel up through the building if the second floor were vented?

When we are searching we vent windows from inside. This way we can monitor the conditions and search for life and fire.
Whe the hos eline is moving into a room with fire we vent from the outside so the engine can move into the room. Is this how you guys do it? Or do you hve a different plan of coordination?


Doug Ott said:

I'm not the smartest person when it comes to tactics so I'm mostly posting this to get everyone's comments to see if I'm on the right track.

I would've taken the hoseline in the front door as they had, only it would be charged. We use Task Force Tips fog nozzles on 2 of our attack lines and they seem to do a great job as we pump them for a minimum of 150 gpm on an 1-3/4. We have an additional 1-3/4 with a SabreJet combination fog/solid bore (with all due respect to Akron, I think I'd rather have a standard solid bore instead). Our largest attack line is a 2" with a TFT. I would have the basement windows and exterior basement door (if present) opened. I would also have the front window of the half-story laddered and taken out and cleared. If there is a rear window on the half-story then the same treatment would be given to that one as well. The hoseline would be taken to the interior stairs that lead to the basement if conditions allowed, if not then attack through the exterior basement door. The second hose-line would follow the first but be in position to protect the interior stairs while a team performed the primary search. Hopefully everything goes as planned and everyone goes home. I think with the staffing level in the district for which I am lucky to work, this is do-able.

I still haven't been sold on performing roof ventilation on basement fires. I'm more comfortable using the windows instead if they are of adequate number and size. From what I saw that appeared to be an older structure. If the fire hasn't entered the wall space then by opening the roof and the rafter space it just seems you'd be inviting the fire to travel up that way instead of out a basement opening.

It seemed that by opening up that front window the way they did without water flowing on the fire from the interior basement stairs that they brought the fire up to them. I think I would've left that window intact and take my chances with taking out the upper ones.

That's all I'm going to blabber out for now. Let me know what you think. I have a lot to learn and am really enjoying this site.

Thank you all and stay safe,

Doug

Permalink Reply by Doug Ott on November 25, 2008 at 2:50pm

Jim, I wasn't my intention to skip the first floor during my venting of the 2nd floor windows. I just didn't include the 1st in my ramblings. My thoughts on venting the 2nd floor windows was as an alternative to cutting open the roof.
Typically when we actually have fires, the officer does a 360 of the building while the engineer and the back-step fireman grab the irons and stretch the initial attack line. While the officer is circling the building he would look at the windows and see which one has self-vented, has the most smoke staining or has the darkest/fastest smoke issuing from the seams and vent that window prior to our entry. I believe this practice came from our lower manpower days when we had 3 engine houses and 3 personnel (including the officer) on the trucks.
And back to venting the 2nd floor windows: I know the fire might travel up to the second floor by opening it up, but I was hoping to prevent that by having the second hose-line placed at the stairs. And if we were to take the first line through an outside opening, have the second line team close the interior door to the basement stairs and stage there for protection.
After reading your reply and thinking about it some more, it would be a beautiful thing to vent windows as we search. That was a bad brain-fart on my part.

Thanks again for everything that you all share. Stay safe, Doug

Jim Mason said:

Doug
We're all on the same team here and none of us are experts.

I like what you say when you would go in the outside entrance to get to the basement fire. It looks like the fire is down there. This would get us down into the basement below the heat on the basemnet ceiling before we enter that level.

How about the venting plan. Would you skip the 1st floor and move the open ing of windows on the second floor?
Do you think the fire might travel up through the building if the second floor were vented?

When we are searching we vent windows from inside. This way we can monitor the conditions and search for life and fire.
Whe the hos eline is moving into a room with fire we vent from the outside so the engine can move into the room. Is this how you guys do it? Or do you hve a different plan of coordination?


Doug Ott said:

I'm not the smartest person when it comes to tactics so I'm mostly posting this to get everyone's comments to see if I'm on the right track.

I would've taken the hoseline in the front door as they had, only it would be charged. We use Task Force Tips fog nozzles on 2 of our attack lines and they seem to do a great job as we pump them for a minimum of 150 gpm on an 1-3/4. We have an additional 1-3/4 with a SabreJet combination fog/solid bore (with all due respect to Akron, I think I'd rather have a standard solid bore instead). Our largest attack line is a 2" with a TFT. I would have the basement windows and exterior basement door (if present) opened. I would also have the front window of the half-story laddered and taken out and cleared. If there is a rear window on the half-story then the same treatment would be given to that one as well. The hoseline would be taken to the interior stairs that lead to the basement if conditions allowed, if not then attack through the exterior basement door. The second hose-line would follow the first but be in position to protect the interior stairs while a team performed the primary search. Hopefully everything goes as planned and everyone goes home. I think with the staffing level in the district for which I am lucky to work, this is do-able.

I still haven't been sold on performing roof ventilation on basement fires. I'm more comfortable using the windows instead if they are of adequate number and size. From what I saw that appeared to be an older structure. If the fire hasn't entered the wall space then by opening the roof and the rafter space it just seems you'd be inviting the fire to travel up that way instead of out a basement opening.

It seemed that by opening up that front window the way they did without water flowing on the fire from the interior basement stairs that they brought the fire up to them. I think I would've left that window intact and take my chances with taking out the upper ones.

That's all I'm going to blabber out for now. Let me know what you think. I have a lot to learn and am really enjoying this site.

Thank you all and stay safe,

Doug

Permalink Reply by Kurt Callisen on November 25, 2008 at 10:09pm

Here is what i think. The stairs to the basement are off the kitchen right inside the back door. I would take the 1st line there, and yes a 13/4 is good for going down a very hot stair case to a small basement. Than I would have the basement windows taken. The 2nd line should go to the top of the basement stairs to cover the 1st line. the stairs to the 2nd floor are right by the front door. the search should start there. As for the roof I agree that would be a low priority. The biggest problem that I see is lack of people to do what needs to be done.

Kurt

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on November 27, 2008 at 1:45am

-Kurt, you're absolutely correct in stating that manpower is an issue in this video. That lack of manpower directly contributes to a lack of adequate ventilation taking place before the line or any personnel enter the environment.
-Aggressive venting may but a trapped victim some precious time, although it appears that the search was not addressed in a timely enough fashion so as to be effectual. Efforts appear to be concentrated on suppression. But, this may be a false impression created by the video. That being said, again this is a manpower and prioritization issue.
-Furthermore, in a known basement fire situation, ventilation on the entry level should become a priority so as to allow companies the ability of evaluating the floor they intend to traverse.
-Having fought basement fires, especially one as developed as in the video, I will respectfully disagree with you on the size of the line being used. The 1 3/4 just doesn't have the reach, penetration or punch for a quick and complete knockdown.
-I will fall back on the old adage that, if the fire has control of more than two residential sized rooms (which it appears to have) or for fires in basements or of an undetermined size and location then stretch the big lines.
-All to often firefighters are to comfortable stretching the 1 3/4 because of its pre-connected ease of use and speed of deployment, sacrificing the speed of true knockdown performed in a much safer fashion with a 2 1/2.
-Todays firefighters need to reacquaint themselves with one of the most potent weapons available to them; the 2 1/2 line and dispel the false impression that large fires are knocked down with the 1 3/4. In many instances the fire is actually kept in check and prevented from spreading while it consumes all the fuel in the fire compartment. It comes back to basic GPM's vs. BTU's. What many firefighters think is a knockdown is in fact a slow holding mission.
-We cannot be afraid or reluctant to stretch the big lines. If it causes concern then training is needed.
-Can two firefighters stretch and operate the 2 1/2 hand line? Sure, if they are familiar and well rehearsed in its use. Three firefighters would be far better, safer and much faster
-On another note, we do agree on the low priority of roof ventilation in this video.
-Stay safe,
-BRICK

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on November 27, 2008 at 10:23am

Can anyone tell if there is a line towards the back of the house? Perhaps they were accessing the basement from the rear of the structure?

My opinions on ventilation may seem excessive to some but having spent most of my career on Ladders and now being the guy standing in the front yard, I believe in aggressive ventilation. I agree with the view that smoke is fuel so I would have preferred to have ventilation accomplished more vigoriously. I like to make the smoke behave, meaning, giving it ample opportunity to exit the structure. This makes it better for fire attack because they can actually see again which means they can attack the fire easier. It also makes the chances of survival for a possible victim greater while giving the search crews their eyes back as well. Anytime I can prevent smoke from recirculating back through the fire, we're all better off.

I, like the guys who were there, would have preferred to have the attack lines charged much faster, but who know's what all else the driver was having to do, even though their focus should have been on getting the lines charged. If the lines would have been charged I can see no reason why an 1 3/4" could not have suppressed the BTU production. The house was small enough that the 1 3/4" could have handled it.

Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on November 27, 2008 at 10:28am

Mike Walker said:

Can anyone tell if there is a line towards the back of the house? Perhaps they were accessing the basement from the rear of the structure?

My opinions on ventilation may seem excessive to some but having spent most of my career on Ladders and now being the guy standing in the front yard, I believe in aggressive ventilation. I agree with the view that smoke is fuel so I would have preferred to have ventilation accomplished more vigoriously. I like to make the smoke behave, meaning, giving it ample opportunity to exit the structure. This makes it better for fire attack because they can actually see again which means they can attack the fire easier. It also makes the chances of survival for a possible victim greater while giving the search crews their eyes back as well. Anytime I can prevent smoke from recirculating back through the fire, we're all better off.

I, like the guys who were there, would have preferred to have the attack lines charged much faster, but who know's what all else the driver was having to do, even though their focus should have been on getting the lines charged. If the lines would have been charged I can see no reason why an 1 3/4" could not have suppressed the BTU production. The house was small enough that the 1 3/4" could have handled it.

But... .Brick makes an excellent point about the 2 1/2" line. I like his rule of thumb. Makes good sense to me

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