Apartment House Fires

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Russ Chapman on November 10, 2008 at 2:34pm

Art
Andy Fredericks had the best answer years ago. Spot the engine with the tailboard near the entrance of the building, and if possible, lay away. As a former tower ladder driver, I can "cross my cab" with your rig to spot my boom. Also, with a TL, I am spotting the bucket, not the turntable. A good LCC will cant the cab of his rig outward a little to give him clearence from the cab safety interlocks to ad to his scrub area. If you are using LDH, lay past the building and then make your stretch. The bottom line of this question is the measurement from the base of the stairs, as every state and city will have different frontatges to calculate the street lengths for. There is no pat answer, just getting out in your area and conduct the stretch. If you can't pull hose, use 300 feet of 8 mm search rope, with a knot every 50 feet. At least this can replicate your hose, and if you catch a run, you can leave it.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 10, 2008 at 3:01pm

Russ,

As you said, your own response areas and SOPs determine apparatus spotting. In my area, we don't generally "lay away" or reverse lay. The still engine pulls past (catching a three side view of the building) and leaves room for the truck (or trucks) to take the front or address of the building. The still engine also announces their direction of travel so that the truck and second due engine know how they should approach the building. We have many narrow streets and you only get one shot at getting the rigs in the right spot.

I'm not sure I understand why the bucket determines placement if you want to set-up on a corner to scrub two sides. If the turntable is not past the corner, how will the bucket be able to scrub both sides? We use the turntable as the critical point because we run tower ladders and the location of the turntable determines the scrub area that can be achieved. Also, we try to work off the rear to maximize the ladder reach. If you work off the front, you lose 50' of ladder.

The still truck will adjust their route to the scene in order to arrive "behind" the still engine if necessary based on the width of the street at that address and the second engine will go around the block and back into the still engine. That way they can "lay away" to supply the still engine if they are not on or close to a hydrant.

As far as the street length, again we agree. That distance is variable as is the distance from the base of the stairs. As I said in an earlier post on this subject, here are the necessary components to calculate the length of the stretch:

- Amount of hose needed on the fire floor. (L + W)
- Add the hose for the elevation: based on the type of stairs, or if you can do a well stretch etc. Rule of thumb...one length per floor
- Add the distance from the chosen stair entry to the building entry point.
- Finally, add the distance from the entry door to the tailboard

Permalink Reply by Jim Miller on November 11, 2008 at 8:01pm

It seems there is a lot of concern about the distance between the first due and the building. I thought we were estimating how much we needed in the building. We don't usually estimate the number of lengths needed from the rig to the building due to having control people in place. It sounds like you guys are estimating the entire stretch, shouldering or unloading it all, and then laying from the rig to the fire floor, or below. Do you guys have control personnel? Do they have a responsibility in the stretch. They certainly do in ours and in most cases stretching from a static bed, they determine how much is needed to reach the building from the rig, break and make the connection. This is a vital part of the stretch, but who is responsible? Unless it is an unusual stretch; through a court yard, extremely long set back, hard to reach area, etc, we generally team up crews enough to shoulder the lengths, or bring bundled lengths needed inside the building and leave the exterior lengths for the control person. Holler back!

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 11, 2008 at 8:40pm

Jim,

We all know there are differences from dept to dept. Sometimes it is difficult to understand why some departments do things the way they do them. There are usually very good reasons, based on the particulars of each community.

In our case, the company officer estimates the stretch (from the tailboard) and the control man makes sure the correct amount of hose is loaded. He stops the stretch at the correct amount and adds a length for the engineer to make his hook-up. The control man, in our case, does not do the estimate, he controls the loading and ends the deployment at the correct distance.

Art

Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on November 12, 2008 at 9:30am

What has come out of this question besides how many lengths to stretch is the knowledge that these types of buildings eat up hose and require a different approach then the standard stretch. Multiple dwelling fires are vasty different than single story dwelling fires. One of the things biggest differences is having to stretch above the fire. Join in on that topic too.

Permalink Reply by Joe Dombrowski on November 12, 2008 at 10:47am

Depending on if the stairwell is open or not is the biggest factor on your amount of hose, but lets start from the door. Since the stairwell is in the middle of the building it would be safe to acocunt for on length from the door to the stairwell since your distance should be no more than 35' unless you have some crazy lobby or hallways in this structure, but with this layout I am assuming there are 2-4 units per floor and a lobby or hall which leads directly to the stairs. Open stairwell you can run your supply line straight down only using one length of hose from the base of the stairs to the floor below assuming you have 10 foot floors in the MD. Closed stairwell which is more common in our city you will need approximately 1 length per floor. To reach the fire floor you will need 1 length and then 2 lengths for the fire floor. My reason this is that your stairwell is in the middle of the structure hence you should not have a stretch more then 100' anwhere on a floor unless there is some crazy layout which I have never seen in a situation like this. theoreticlly your average strecth should be about 60' (1/2 w + 1/2 l)

So to sum up my opinion you would need 5 lengths of 50' hose for an open stairwell and approximately 8 lengths for a closed stairwell to get you from the fire to the entrance to the building. Anything outside of the structure has not been figured into the equation.

As for deploying thes lines is also dependant on an open or closed stairwell especially for our department. A multiple dwelling like this in our city would get 3 engines, 2 trucks, 1 rescue which would be 24 FF on scene within 5 minutes. As the first due company with an open stairwell the officer and 1 ff would take our highrise packs (which in our department are 2 100' lengths of 2" hose) and a rope bag. They would proceed to the fourth floor where they could assess the situation and deploy the rope down the open stairwell. While that crew is making their way to the fire floor the other FF and driver would deploy the needed hose to make the fire floor bringing the wye to the base of the stairs. Once deployed the 2 guys on the 4th can hoist the hose up and secure as needed. At this point the third FF can make his way up to the 4th floor to join the crew while the pump operator heads back to the rig where by this time the Second due engine should be laying in and secure a water source.

Now with a closed stairwell this advance can be a little more difficult and may require the assistance the second due engine crew because until this initial line is laid our efforts will be futile.

Permalink Reply by Serena Ellis on September 5, 2009 at 2:15am

Ray, I think they can reach the apartment from stairs and I think its easy and safe. I say 6 lengths because its properly reach the apartment. appartamenti madrid

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