CAFS for Supported Interior Attacks on Residential and Commercial Events - Fire Engineering Training Community2024-03-29T16:00:04Zhttps://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?commentId=1219672%3AComment%3A94020&groupId=1219672%3AGroup%3A1695&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A92647&feed=yes&xn_auth=noDoug, The concentrates needed…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-04-03:1219672:Comment:1332812009-04-03T17:36:08.209ZMark Cumminshttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/MarkCummins
Doug, The concentrates needed for a proper CAFS application should never be more than 1 percent in water. At this ratio I have never experienced slick conditions. After 30 years developing and using CAFS, slick has never been a problem.<br />
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If you use a gelling agent in CAFS, or any other system, you might find VERY slick conditions. Gels are seldom needed with a good CAFS unit. You can make foam last for hours as a heat barrier for structure exposure protection or line building for back-fire…
Doug, The concentrates needed for a proper CAFS application should never be more than 1 percent in water. At this ratio I have never experienced slick conditions. After 30 years developing and using CAFS, slick has never been a problem.<br />
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If you use a gelling agent in CAFS, or any other system, you might find VERY slick conditions. Gels are seldom needed with a good CAFS unit. You can make foam last for hours as a heat barrier for structure exposure protection or line building for back-fire operations in the wildland fires. Add the oil eating microbes to the foam for effective spill washdown at the highway wrecks, the roadways will be squeeky clean and NOT slick or toxic. I looked at your guys website…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-04-03:1219672:Comment:1332792009-04-03T17:15:07.174Zscott corriganhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/scott53
I looked at your guys website and it looks like some great information. I have been sent all kinds of vids from Youtube but most are for free burning post flashover fires.<br />
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I am totally sold on the use of CAFS for all events that we respond to except the following scenario, and I am only against using it for this scenario due only to lack of experience. I am hesitant to support the "just believe" movement. So here goes the scenario and my thoughts:<br />
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Pre Flashover/ Compartmentalized/…
I looked at your guys website and it looks like some great information. I have been sent all kinds of vids from Youtube but most are for free burning post flashover fires.<br />
<br />
I am totally sold on the use of CAFS for all events that we respond to except the following scenario, and I am only against using it for this scenario due only to lack of experience. I am hesitant to support the "just believe" movement. So here goes the scenario and my thoughts:<br />
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Pre Flashover/ Compartmentalized/ Unventilated Structure Fire- nobody outside the building- third party report: Everything about this leads us to an interior attack and search operation.<br />
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1) I know that I can begin to cool the atmosphere and limit the air inflow to reduce the heat and not allow this to progress to flashover. I know that I can use my fog nozzle in small compartmentalized areas that have the high hazard of smoke ignition. I do not want to apply my stream to the overhead materials that may or may not be superheated to limit the stream production/conversion into that compartment. I also know that if this event begins to move toward flashover and I can not get rise and lift of the smoke confirming that I am not cooling it, I can dial to a straight stream and appy 150gpm toward the area of involvement.<br />
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2) Given the low GPM flows of the CAFS lines: I am not sure how this same scenario will play out. I have heard versions of paint all the surfaces to just hit it from the outside, etc. My goal is to keep it from flashover and reduce the heat from the interior, if I have CAFS and the fire progresses toward flashover, I seem (my inexperienced personal statement) to have no reserve to do more against this fire.<br />
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Hopefully that more clearly spells out my concerns. Currently we will use cafs on all of our structure fires except the above scenario. However, if we can establish quick vertical or PPA to resolve the hazards inside we will use CAFS.<br />
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We have tried to be open to change, but our horses get really scared when we fire up the Portable CAFS unit we have strapped to them. We have sometimes used technology to self inflict wounds.<br />
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I am surprised there is not more of a movement to clarify the use of CAFS. I have looked into some of the original players and it seems that they are moving away from CAFS. What other departments in your area are using CAFS in similar form to you guys at.......how exactly do you pronouce that?<br />
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You guys have provided some great info. to chew on, keep it coming. I also have used CAFS on inte…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-04-03:1219672:Comment:1332492009-04-03T14:30:23.655ZDoug Keelinghttps://community.fireengineering.com/xn/detail/u_27prmaeapi0o8
I also have used CAFS on interior fire attack on tile floors and all the crews were talking about how slippery it was. I also have seen foam blow out of the house and get on a guy standing at the door with no gear on. Not sure if it should have been used on this fire. WHAT! I HATE CHANGE
I also have used CAFS on interior fire attack on tile floors and all the crews were talking about how slippery it was. I also have seen foam blow out of the house and get on a guy standing at the door with no gear on. Not sure if it should have been used on this fire. WHAT! I HATE CHANGE Correction Captain...Its E241…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-04-03:1219672:Comment:1332352009-04-03T13:45:25.071ZMichael J. Andersonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/MichaelJAnderson
Correction Captain...Its E241 hosestreams that you have to look out for......."300" Club<br />
<cite>Nick Perkins said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/startwater/forum/topic/show?id=1219672%3ATopic%3A92647#1219672Comment132869"><div>Good talk here. Hey Lt Anderson! I work with Michael and can vouch for him, he knows his stuff.<br></br><br></br>I gotta remember the "ice skater" comment, I haven't heard that one yet! Seriously though I have conducted several interior attacks…</div>
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Correction Captain...Its E241 hosestreams that you have to look out for......."300" Club<br />
<cite>Nick Perkins said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/startwater/forum/topic/show?id=1219672%3ATopic%3A92647#1219672Comment132869"><div>Good talk here. Hey Lt Anderson! I work with Michael and can vouch for him, he knows his stuff.<br/><br/>I gotta remember the "ice skater" comment, I haven't heard that one yet! Seriously though I have conducted several interior attacks on concrete floors and haven't had any ice skater accidents. I faced more problems from E221 streams though, HA!</div>
</blockquote> Good talk here. Hey Lt Anders…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-04-01:1219672:Comment:1328692009-04-01T20:28:25.747ZNick Perkinshttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/NickPerkins
Good talk here. Hey Lt Anderson! I work with Michael and can vouch for him, he knows his stuff.<br />
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I gotta remember the "ice skater" comment, I haven't heard that one yet! Seriously though I have conducted several interior attacks on concrete floors and haven't had any ice skater accidents. I faced more problems from E221 streams though, HA!
Good talk here. Hey Lt Anderson! I work with Michael and can vouch for him, he knows his stuff.<br />
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I gotta remember the "ice skater" comment, I haven't heard that one yet! Seriously though I have conducted several interior attacks on concrete floors and haven't had any ice skater accidents. I faced more problems from E221 streams though, HA! Scott,
Our Department uses C…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-29:1219672:Comment:1321472009-03-29T01:41:41.689ZMichael J. Andersonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/MichaelJAnderson
Scott,<br />
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Our Department uses CAFS for all firefighting: offensive and defensive attacks. We have been 100% CAFS fleet for 13 years now, and can fully attest to using CAFS for first-in sustained interior attacks. We used it for many years before we had a good grasp on the theory behind CAFS. We have routinely extinguished fires using only our tank water (750 gallons) before our water supply was established.<br />
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We use 200' 1 3/4" rack lines with a Task Force Tips CAFS-Force nozzle. We still leave…
Scott,<br />
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Our Department uses CAFS for all firefighting: offensive and defensive attacks. We have been 100% CAFS fleet for 13 years now, and can fully attest to using CAFS for first-in sustained interior attacks. We used it for many years before we had a good grasp on the theory behind CAFS. We have routinely extinguished fires using only our tank water (750 gallons) before our water supply was established.<br />
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We use 200' 1 3/4" rack lines with a Task Force Tips CAFS-Force nozzle. We still leave the fog tip on for "officer discretion" but the smooth bore is a 15/16" insert. Our 2 1/5" nozzles vary, but they are either elkhart automatic nozzles or TFT smooth bore with stack tips.<br />
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In my flow tests we obtained right at 104 gpm flow with the rack line, operating at 100 psi discharge pressure. (FOG) and 100 gpm (smooth bore). I have not done flow data on the 2 1/2". Now we have also found that this discharge setting works FOR US in case of an air/compressor failure where we have to flow water/foam. With no air, the flows increase to 157 gpm (FOG) and 165 gpm (smooth bore). That is flowing at the normal operating setting for CAFS flow, before any adjustments for friction loss in the water/foam lines.<br />
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Floor concerns: I personally do not think of that since I have always used class a foam for firefighting. I do think it would be a factor in my decision-making to use foam and/or CAFS streams.<br />
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I think that Mark Cummings was heading the right way with his discussion on this. You must get to a comfortable flow rate for your department. We fall back to NFPA flows of at least 100 gpm for interior firefighting. For the early years, we were using 60 gpm nozzles and fought much more agressive fires then and it worked. We have not had anyone burned or hurt because of a lack of adequate flow. That is our baseline: adequate fire stream for the conditions. I have had discussions with FF from Des Moines Iowa that had to flow at least 150 gpm CAFS streams before their guys would feel comfortable with it. Today, GIAMEX sells a CAFS system that flows only 40 gpm (Phoenix FD has 2 of them in service).<br />
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I assure you that CAFS can be very beneficial to use. Do not be afraid of it. You will need to train on some troubleshooting issues but that will come. Please feel free to contact me with any questions you may have about CAFS and how our Department uses it. <a href="http://www.pflugervillefire.com/">www.pflugervillefire.com</a> CAFS_Systems.htm<br />
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...Michael Anderson If you spill the foam concent…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-19:1219672:Comment:976442008-11-19T19:02:24.256ZMark Cumminshttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/MarkCummins
If you spill the foam concentrate on a floor it will be extremly slick. If you cover a floor with a foam that contains only .3% to a 1% solution of the mixed foam concentrate with water you will find that the foam actually increases the walking traction more than a plain water wet floor. The floor with foam on it becomes squeeky clean like the dishes. This is because the fire creates an oily carbon soot that gets slick when the water on the floors makes the rubber boots loose ftraction. The…
If you spill the foam concentrate on a floor it will be extremly slick. If you cover a floor with a foam that contains only .3% to a 1% solution of the mixed foam concentrate with water you will find that the foam actually increases the walking traction more than a plain water wet floor. The floor with foam on it becomes squeeky clean like the dishes. This is because the fire creates an oily carbon soot that gets slick when the water on the floors makes the rubber boots loose ftraction. The foam actually cuts the soot like detergent and creates greater traction on non-carpeted floors.<br />
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As for the heat after a CAFS attack? Test have proven CAFS can cool a room much faster than plain water attack, and if you will spread the CAFS foam stream with your finger at the tip you will find the broken pattern will clean the room of smoke as well. Each foam bubble has a thin film shell that is loaded with carbon loving surfactants that attract carbon molecules and cling to them and cool them below 212F instantly. Let the bubbles do the work by spreading them over a greater area. A finger in the stream makes a big difference with interior attack.<br />
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<cite>scott corrigan said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/startwater/forum/topic/show?id=1219672%3ATopic%3A92647#1219672Comment94043"><div>That is more of the angle that I am asking these questions from : We took delivery of a CAFS engine. We got a house fire. We pulled a 2 1/2" handline, Engineer charged it with CAFS for an interior attack. The foam system did not work, so we got air and water. IT was very hard to handle with not a lot of GPM Flow.<br/><br/>What I am looking for is specifically any department that has CAFS that uses it for sustained interior attacks. I hear a lot from departments that use it for defensive or transitional attacks. The departments that have it and can sustain an initial interior attack have opted to leave it to "Officers Choice". We want to support it and use it correctly. We also do not want anybody to get injured along the path.<br/><br/>Currently if CAFS goes down (you lose the air) we can revert to foam and water and flow from 130-160gpm smooth bore attack. I am comfortable with that. I am more concerned in a situation where we arrive, pull a line go interior and (like it is described) it blacks out the fire quickly. Our members will move in for the kill and I am concerned that we have not addressed the BTU's due to only delivering 95GPM.<br/><br/>I do support CAFS, we have 4 CAFS engines (out of 9 front line engines). We want to use it, we just need some solid information from a dept. that actually uses it and is not a station that does defensive or transitional attacks. I see the use and benefit of that completely.<br/><br/>My other concern is in commercial structures without carpet (hopefully this clears it up). IF we lay into a kitchen fire at the local eatery with a 2 1/2" CAFS line what is going to keep us from looking like ice skaters inside, slipping all over the place. IT seems there would be some hazard in this appication. Meaning- no carpet or other material to absorb the CAFS- NO CAFS for initial operations.<br/><br/>Anyway, we are trying to tackle this currently. We need a proper attack flow (GPM) Some go/no go decision making markers (when to use CAFS when not to use CAFS).<br/><br/>We have checked with some local fire depts. and will continue the hunt.<br/><br/>Thanks, Scott</div>
</blockquote> That is more of the angle tha…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-11:1219672:Comment:940432008-11-11T01:50:59.275Zscott corriganhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/scott53
That is more of the angle that I am asking these questions from : We took delivery of a CAFS engine. We got a house fire. We pulled a 2 1/2" handline, Engineer charged it with CAFS for an interior attack. The foam system did not work, so we got air and water. IT was very hard to handle with not a lot of GPM Flow.<br />
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What I am looking for is specifically any department that has CAFS that uses it for sustained interior attacks. I hear a lot from departments that use it for defensive or transitional…
That is more of the angle that I am asking these questions from : We took delivery of a CAFS engine. We got a house fire. We pulled a 2 1/2" handline, Engineer charged it with CAFS for an interior attack. The foam system did not work, so we got air and water. IT was very hard to handle with not a lot of GPM Flow.<br />
<br />
What I am looking for is specifically any department that has CAFS that uses it for sustained interior attacks. I hear a lot from departments that use it for defensive or transitional attacks. The departments that have it and can sustain an initial interior attack have opted to leave it to "Officers Choice". We want to support it and use it correctly. We also do not want anybody to get injured along the path.<br />
<br />
Currently if CAFS goes down (you lose the air) we can revert to foam and water and flow from 130-160gpm smooth bore attack. I am comfortable with that. I am more concerned in a situation where we arrive, pull a line go interior and (like it is described) it blacks out the fire quickly. Our members will move in for the kill and I am concerned that we have not addressed the BTU's due to only delivering 95GPM.<br />
<br />
I do support CAFS, we have 4 CAFS engines (out of 9 front line engines). We want to use it, we just need some solid information from a dept. that actually uses it and is not a station that does defensive or transitional attacks. I see the use and benefit of that completely.<br />
<br />
My other concern is in commercial structures without carpet (hopefully this clears it up). IF we lay into a kitchen fire at the local eatery with a 2 1/2" CAFS line what is going to keep us from looking like ice skaters inside, slipping all over the place. IT seems there would be some hazard in this appication. Meaning- no carpet or other material to absorb the CAFS- NO CAFS for initial operations.<br />
<br />
Anyway, we are trying to tackle this currently. We need a proper attack flow (GPM) Some go/no go decision making markers (when to use CAFS when not to use CAFS).<br />
<br />
We have checked with some local fire depts. and will continue the hunt.<br />
<br />
Thanks, Scott If you get equipment from a g…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-11:1219672:Comment:940392008-11-11T01:42:39.720ZLarry Lasichhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/Larry77
If you get equipment from a good source and maintain it as it should be, it's a non-issue. Any part of a pump operation can go down due to equipment malfunction. I've heard of more pumpers being switched out due to over heating than pump failure.<br />
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Talk to departments that use CAFS pumpers, ask where they get them and how they've worked out. There are a lot of dealers so there is a wide range of quality. The good ones are spendy on the front end, but they pay for themselves over the long haul.
If you get equipment from a good source and maintain it as it should be, it's a non-issue. Any part of a pump operation can go down due to equipment malfunction. I've heard of more pumpers being switched out due to over heating than pump failure.<br />
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Talk to departments that use CAFS pumpers, ask where they get them and how they've worked out. There are a lot of dealers so there is a wide range of quality. The good ones are spendy on the front end, but they pay for themselves over the long haul. What happens if the foam syst…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-11:1219672:Comment:940202008-11-11T00:06:25.828ZBob Shovaldhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BobShovald
What happens if the foam system quits or the compressor gives out? Are left inside with minimal amount of water in the line? Or does the system revert back to a standard water line with the required gpm? I see many benifits of CAFs but this is the issue I have never been able to get answered. Every time we have had a demo of CAFs something went wrong with the system. It makes me a little bit nervous.<br />
Bob
What happens if the foam system quits or the compressor gives out? Are left inside with minimal amount of water in the line? Or does the system revert back to a standard water line with the required gpm? I see many benifits of CAFs but this is the issue I have never been able to get answered. Every time we have had a demo of CAFs something went wrong with the system. It makes me a little bit nervous.<br />
Bob