Apartment House Fires

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kurt Callisen on November 5, 2008 at 6:29pm

Wayne, once the hose line is charged than who is going to move it down the hall and around the corners on the stair case. I don't care how big you are that line is not going to move unless somebody is there to move it at the turns. An I did not mean to imply that my department comes with 6 on the engine, what I was trying to get at was that 1 three man engine is not going to get this job done more help has to be there, and yes I too think the fire is 1st. if you put the fire out all the other stuff goes better.


Kurt

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on November 5, 2008 at 7:03pm

Kurt I miss understood you then..First off Im not suggesting Im some super hero pipeman nor a moth looking into the flame.
Yes its going to take manpower to move that line around. Put the fire out and all should fall in place. Again I agree 100%. As I look here Im the young gun on this subject with only 7years. I just dont get the 6 men!
If charged and laid out right wouldnt it take 3 men to move the working end of the hose. they wont be pulling the entire 6 lengths just the last 2 maybe (100ft). Gentlemen if Im wrong and it looks that way :L) explain in canadain termsto me eh.

Permalink Reply by Russ Chapman on November 5, 2008 at 8:03pm

Wayne
The 6 FFs are needed to just get the hoseline in place. After the hoseline is in place, with a coupling and the nozzle at the knees of the nozzle team so they will have one length for the fire apartment., the other members can now peal off and check the hoseline for kinks or problems, then assist with other duties, or start the stretch of the backup hoseline. The bottom line is the most important duty of an engine company is completed before other things happen.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 5, 2008 at 8:42pm

Gents,

Can we all agree that stretching the initial attack line is likely the first tactical priority? Not to be confused with the first Strategic priority, which is likely Rescue in an occupied single or multiple family occupancy. Further, if Rescue is the first Strategic priority, then all tactics should support rescue as the Strategic priority. The initial attack line supports Rescue, ventilation supports Rescue, primary search supports Rescue etc.......

In my case, if the initial stretch is long, complex or difficult we deploy one man with the 150' "skid" pack, one man for every 100' of 3" a control man, the company officer and of course the engineer. If the stretch is shorter and a straight shot without alot of turns etc.. fewer members can handle it. For example, if we want the wye at the front door and that is 150 or 200 feet from the engine, three should handle that without problems. If we can't do the stretch with the manpower on the still engine, then the second engine, truck or second truck assists the still engine with the stretch. That is the first tactical priority, in support of the strategic priority and it needs to get done first.

Are there cases when the initial attack line is not the tactical priority? Yes, but few exceptions.


Your thoughts.

Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on November 7, 2008 at 9:04am

Placement of the Wye is your tip off to making the fire floor with enough hose. If you carry 150' of hose (three lengths) then placing the Wye on the second floor will assure enough hose for the forth floor fire.
Chris - In reading your description you are doing a well h*** stretch. Unless the well h*** is very wide trying to thread the hose down between the stair railing will be difficult if not impossible. It is much easier to just deploy a portion of the bundle at the base of the stairs and then walk up with the remainer of the hose. Then there is no delay in attaching it to the Wye.

Permalink Reply by Greg Wild on November 7, 2008 at 9:10am

Art,

I was actually trying to agree with your tactics. Meaning, if it did go up a floor, then you seemed to be prepared.

I believe that I would attack this situation like you stated!

Permalink Reply by Drew Smith on November 9, 2008 at 1:13am

I agree with you Kurt - who has 6 on a company. Evenif you pair an ambulance (assuming the engine house has an amb with FFs assigned) you are a little short. And with a 2&1/2 there can be no little. I have tried to instil in our second in engine that if they see the static bed 2&1/2 coming off (observed on arrival or heard in the arrival report over the radio) that they should team up with that first engine crew. Some say "well then, who's going to do the back up line or vent or search, etc.?" In my opinion, in most cases a well placed first hose line is the most effective tactic and may well reduce the urgency of the ventilation and improve seach conditions. What good is a back up line or search team that can't reach the fire area because the attack line never did? Also, once that attack line is in the good position then maybe a couple of the members not at the nozzle can advance up and start some other work.

Permalink Reply by Drew Smith on November 9, 2008 at 1:19am

Who here has members that think that they'll just go to an upper floor either the floor below or down the hall, drop a rope and hoist up the line OR they'll tie up the aerial using the prepiped waterway as a standpipe? In both cases, when I've had them try this in drill (without coaching or prep) the manual stretch gets the job done way faster even though it always needs some additional practice. I am amazed at the members of our profession who can always "tell us" what they'll do but when it comes time to "show us" fall well short.

Permalink Reply by Russ Chapman on November 9, 2008 at 10:24am

Bro
We practice rope stretches. We don't do it for speed. We do it due to manpower constraints, a standpipe is OOS, or location of the stairwell neccessitates a very long stretch.
I hope that if brothers use a pre-piped waterway on their ladder to put hose up in the sky, that they shut the rig off. The aerial is pretty much useless now.
You are right, but training is the issue. Forget the Hazmat drill this week. Stretch hose!

Permalink Reply by Anthony Avillo on November 9, 2008 at 8:16pm

One thing that must be considered that is normally not and then we wonder why we stretch short is the "street length" An engine pulling just past the building is going to burn at least one length in the street so an additional length must be added to our total that we have calculated for the building.
I'm figuring 5 lengths here, taking for granted that the line must be laid on the stairs and not straight up the well: 1 in the street, 1 from flr 1 to flr 2, 1 from flr 2 to flr 3, 1 from flr 3 to flr 4 and 1 to operate on the 4th floor. That's 5 and should be plenty. I would rather my companies have a little more than a little less. As I am usually in the street, I will have to count the lengths the next time to check this.
If the line can be stretched up the well instead of on the stairs themselves, then 3 lengths can make it -- 1 in the street, 1 up the well, and 1 on the fire floor. The moral here -- Don't forget the street length!
Be safe

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 9, 2008 at 8:49pm

Chief,

As you said, the street distance, from the tailboard to the door is the final number in the equation. Just a few thoughts on some variables to that distance assuming the engine is not performing a “reverse lay” to the hydrant.

The problem here is, and a bit off the topic, is that distance is variable based on the "street width" of the building and if the still engine leaves room for the still truck as they should. The still or first arriving engine should pull past the building far enough so that the truck can spot in the most advantageous position. This spot will vary depending on the width of the street and obvious conditions upon arrival among other factors. Generally and especially on narrow streets, the truck or trucks should be given enough space so that they can spot their turntables at either corner and anywhere between the corners. This means that the still engine needs to be well past the building so that if the truck is spotted with the turntable on the corner, the engine needs to be over 50’ past the corner to allow for the length of the truck. That can mean two or more lengths from the tailboard to the door.

Art

Permalink Reply by Jim Miller on November 9, 2008 at 8:54pm

We have recently started doing building specific training just for this reason. We have a lot of guys that htink the public hallway is going to be tenable for to make the stretch. Anyway, we too do rope stretches as a means to get the first line working. This in many cases is our only option. Do we drill enough on this? I think we all know that answer, but we are trying. Oh yea, all our ladder companies are quints, so yea they think they can do it all, ladder the building, elevated standpipe, etc. We don't have the staffing to operate as both an engine and truck. ONce they comit there are either or.

BE SAFE

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