Apartment House Fires

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Russ Chapman on November 4, 2008 at 8:59am

Six lengths. I am not including what is coming from the rig to the base of the stairs. Most FDs do not carry this amount in a static hosebed. For that matter it seems that many FDs do not have static hosebeds and in this scenerio, would have to disconnect nozzles and hang more hose. It is such a tough fight up here for such a simple issue.

Permalink Reply by Erich Roden on November 4, 2008 at 9:49am

Hopefully any job that responds to dwellings like the one in this scenario has a static bed. If they don't, then shame on the last 10 Chiefs that ran the show and specd' apparatus. What do you think the impetus is for lack of static beds? Preconnects? You bet. How long do you think it takes to assemble bundles, hosebeds, etc. to accomplish this stretch?

Oh yeah...five lengths for this stretch..this is a small MD and will not have a huge lobby or long hallways. The interior stairs will be right behind the front door. Four lengths inside and one from the Engine to the front door (stairs).

Permalink Reply by Greg Wild on November 4, 2008 at 12:21pm

And by the time you get all this in place, it might already be on #5.

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on November 4, 2008 at 1:11pm

Laughing here.. Well we do have static hose. And from what I was just taught 2 months ago (ERIC - BHI).
1 length to entrance from Engine -
1 length door Stairs.
2 for stairs .
2 possibley on floor depanding on layout.
My answer is 6 max
The reason I laugh is Im not much of an Engine guy even though thats the my Assignment. I always wanted to be a truckie well where I work that isnt going to happen so thanks to you folks for teaching me how important the engine job really is, now I get to put this down as training :L)

Permalink Reply by Jim Miller on November 4, 2008 at 1:35pm

There are a few things to consider. Is there a well h***, is this a scissor stair, or does it wrap around the elevator? I'd say 5 lengths. One per floor for the stairs and two for the hall. If the stairwell is in the center two length should reach either way off the stairs. Also if the truck goes to the fire floor and locates the fire apartment, the stretch could be mimiced on the floor below. THis will take some guess work out of the estimate.

Permalink Reply by Art Zern on November 4, 2008 at 5:33pm

Ok Greg, I'll bite. Other than the following method, how would you estimate the hose stretch?
- Amount of hose needed on the fire floor. In this example if you add the length and the width (125")
- Add the hose for the elevation: based on the type of stairs, or if you can do a well stretch etc. Rule of thumb...one length per floor
- Add the distance from the chosen stair entry to the building entry point.
- Finally, add the distance from the entry door to the tailboard.

Is there another way to estimate with any certainty? Or...do you just take a chance and hope for the best?

So, in this case, making some assumptions (no well stretch)
- 2 lengths for the fire floor (125') assuming usable stream reach
- 3 lengths for elevation (one per floor)
- 1 length from the front door to the stair entry point. (assuming the 75' is the depth)
- finally, add the distance from the building entry to the tailboard.

Looks like 6 lengths plus the distance from the door to the tailboard if this is not a reverse lay.

What are your thoughts? Care to weigh-in Ray?

Permalink Reply by Russ Chapman on November 4, 2008 at 9:13pm

Andy Fredericks stated years ago, a building with a frontage of 35' and less than 70' deep, one length per floor. If the building exceeds 35' in frontatge, and 70' in depth.....one length per floor and one extra for the fire floor. Obviously every building can be different, and everyone here should know their first due response area like the back of their hand. Well holes, stair locations near windows for rope stretchs, etc. In Rays's building, the stairwell maybe in the center of the building....not neccessarily in the center of the frontage of the building, but the stretch might have to take into consideration that it may be 3 lengths to the base of the stairs because they begin towards the back. This is very common when the front door is set back in a courtyard (H type) buildings. Do any of you have your 1 3/4" filled out with 2 1/2"? Three inch and gated wyes don't cut it for low manpower companies.

Permalink Reply by Kurt Callisen on November 5, 2008 at 12:34pm

The number of hose lengths is 6, for all the reasons that are stated. Now lets talk about how many people it will take to get the hose to the fire floor. My count is 6.
1 nozzle man
1 officer
2 (min) on the stairs to hump hose
1 hydrant man
1 engineer
So how many departments show up with 6 on the engine? If your still has buildings like this than you better have a good plan before the fire. That starts with a rig that is set up for this type of operation,than you need solid s.o.p.s that cover things like riding assignments and adding companys to the alarm to cover all the things that are going to need to get done. An last but not leased is train on moving the hose.


Kurt

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr on November 5, 2008 at 1:23pm

6 men to take the hose to the floor?
We dont arrive with 6 on the truck, and we wouldnt charge the line until the floor below or on the fire floor if situation allows. Our Engine has 3 - Driver, Capt, FF(1st away - Career).. Our Volunteers as were comb-dept arrive in POV and our Career which have automatic call back in the 2nd away with volunteers as well.
I would say 2 (interior) to bring the hose to the floor. We never charge a line until the officer or nozzleman asks for it to be charged. I personally think if it takes 6 to get this done then you should train to get it done with less. There are so many other tasks that need to be done, and all resources can't be laying a single line. If you have a search crew coming in with the pipe crew then they could help, because in my mind the fire is priority over a blind rescue.
BLIND RESCUE- not knowing if persons are in the IDLH.

Permalink Reply by Erich Roden on November 5, 2008 at 1:51pm

Team up Engines anyone? What are second due Engines doing? Stretching a backup line? If the first line isn't stretched, flaked, charged and placed into operation, then what are you backing up? Kurt's count is six. I agree. However, any job can make this happen without having to succumb to defeatism regarding "low manpower." Wayne puts forth a good comment below when he recommends grabbing a few guys who are on the medal day hunt to help with the line. Do what it takes. Tell the guy who claims to be a "Truck guy," you know, the one who probably showed up on an ambulance, to put a couple of hands on the line. Besides, a real "Truck guy" is one who is just as concerned about the first line as the nozzle team is...

Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on November 5, 2008 at 3:38pm

Kurt - Brings up some interesting points that assist us in having a successful operation. SOP's training, asssignments, additional help. The hosebed must be set up for this type of stretch, with a deployment method that is efficient and quick.

Permalink Reply by Russ Chapman on November 5, 2008 at 5:11pm

That is why you team 2 engines to get the most important function on the fire scene in service, the initial hoseline. If you got people hanging out the windows, there are choices to be made. But if you don't have that hoseline in service, the egress is not covered, and then people get hurt. This is a concept (2 engines) that people just don't grasp. I have said this before...if the biggest fire department in the world, with the largest manpower per engine company, uses 2 engines to get one hoseline in place, then why don't small departments do the same? Because we are all moths to the flame.

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