Smoothbore Vs Fog/Automatic for Standpipes - Fire Engineering Training Community2024-03-29T14:38:49Zhttps://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?commentId=1219672%3AComment%3A89453&groupId=1219672%3AGroup%3A1695&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A87421&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI got these as hand me down s…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-31:1219672:Comment:1092532008-12-31T13:53:35.218ZL. Chapelhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/LesChapel
I got these as hand me down second hand pictures from a Fire Protection Engineer that was going to college in Oklahoma. I don't know any specifics since they were attached in an e-mail years ago and not the subject of the e-mail.<br />
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We can only guess how many of the bigger chunks might break up into smaller ones when submersed in turbulent water.<br />
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I don't know the size of the riser, age of the system or thickness of the pipe. I'll venture to guess this is a wet system.<br />
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In any event we had the…
I got these as hand me down second hand pictures from a Fire Protection Engineer that was going to college in Oklahoma. I don't know any specifics since they were attached in an e-mail years ago and not the subject of the e-mail.<br />
<br />
We can only guess how many of the bigger chunks might break up into smaller ones when submersed in turbulent water.<br />
<br />
I don't know the size of the riser, age of the system or thickness of the pipe. I'll venture to guess this is a wet system.<br />
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In any event we had the opportunity to high-rise practice and charge our attackline in a new office building that was only one year old. When the SPO operator flushed the outlet prior to hooking up, there was a lot of black water that came out. No chunks but imagine those systems 30, 40, 50 years old or more. This was one of the reasons we replaced all our high-rise hose packs with 2.5” and 1 1/8” smoothbore nozzles.<br />
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But heck I'm Johnny-Come-Lately on that discussion.<br />
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<cite>Russ Chapman said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/startwater/forum/topic/show?groupUrl=startwater&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A87421&page=4#1219672Comment108698"><div>Les<br/>Holy Crap! I don't think any nozzle would have handled that stuff. Out of curiosity, what size riser was that? Was the integrety of the riser in question, meaning was the pipe too thin to hold pressure after all the turberculine was removed? Was it a dry system or a wet system? Good pictures. Thanks<br/>Russ</div>
</blockquote> Nick
You just can't place the…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-29:1219672:Comment:1087722008-12-29T21:48:03.528ZRuss Chapmanhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/RussChapman
Nick<br />
You just can't place them in service without training. The biggest thing is kinks. If you don't really put the emphasis on chasing kinks, they will kill you as you now have a low pressure hoseline. Proper hoseline handling, and holding have to be reinforced. Check out last months FE for a article by Ray Mac that shows some really good photos. Also, now that you have them, there is really no neccessity to "get in" with the fire, as the stream reach can do it for you, deflecting it on door…
Nick<br />
You just can't place them in service without training. The biggest thing is kinks. If you don't really put the emphasis on chasing kinks, they will kill you as you now have a low pressure hoseline. Proper hoseline handling, and holding have to be reinforced. Check out last months FE for a article by Ray Mac that shows some really good photos. Also, now that you have them, there is really no neccessity to "get in" with the fire, as the stream reach can do it for you, deflecting it on door jambs, hallway walls etc. That is a big bonus. Just get the Brothers out and train with them. Some are going to complain because the hoseline has a tendancy to kink right at the nozzle FF's hip. Again proper hoseline management with no pistol grips will avoid this. Once they get some jobs under thier belt, they will like it. If you have digital flow meters, set them up so the pump operators can find their proper friction losses. Alson remind everyone they are limited to 300 feet, no more of 1 3/4" hose (6 lengths). Try pumping them at 15 psi per length, 30 per 100 Ft, and try 40 psi nozzle pressure. If that NP confuses every one, then use the 50 psi. You will be flowing about 175 and 195 GPM respectively. Be safe<br />
Russ<br />
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<cite>Nick Weiland said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/startwater/forum/topic/show?groupUrl=startwater&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A87421&page=4#1219672Comment108721"><div>Thanks Russ! Very good information. Sorry to hear you’re unable to use them. Mine have not come in yet, but only 1 will be on a hand line, the others for the hi rise packs. But if you knew what I was working with you would understand what a significant step we have overcome, just in getting 1 on a pre-connect.<br/>I plan to fully test and train w/ these when they do arrive. Do you have any recommendations on good training/technique with the s/b nozzle?</div>
</blockquote> Thanks Russ! Very good inform…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-29:1219672:Comment:1087212008-12-29T17:10:38.415ZNick Weilandhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/NickWeiland
Thanks Russ! Very good information. Sorry to hear you’re unable to use them. Mine have not come in yet, but only 1 will be on a hand line, the others for the hi rise packs. But if you knew what I was working with you would understand what a significant step we have overcome, just in getting 1 on a pre-connect.<br />
I plan to fully test and train w/ these when they do arrive. Do you have any recommendations on good training/technique with the s/b nozzle?
Thanks Russ! Very good information. Sorry to hear you’re unable to use them. Mine have not come in yet, but only 1 will be on a hand line, the others for the hi rise packs. But if you knew what I was working with you would understand what a significant step we have overcome, just in getting 1 on a pre-connect.<br />
I plan to fully test and train w/ these when they do arrive. Do you have any recommendations on good training/technique with the s/b nozzle? Les
Holy Crap! I don't think…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-29:1219672:Comment:1086982008-12-29T14:46:11.341ZRuss Chapmanhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/RussChapman
Les<br />
Holy Crap! I don't think any nozzle would have handled that stuff. Out of curiosity, what size riser was that? Was the integrety of the riser in question, meaning was the pipe too thin to hold pressure after all the turberculine was removed? Was it a dry system or a wet system? Good pictures. Thanks<br />
Russ
Les<br />
Holy Crap! I don't think any nozzle would have handled that stuff. Out of curiosity, what size riser was that? Was the integrety of the riser in question, meaning was the pipe too thin to hold pressure after all the turberculine was removed? Was it a dry system or a wet system? Good pictures. Thanks<br />
Russ Here are two pics of 30 lbs…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-29:1219672:Comment:1086902008-12-29T13:45:04.646ZL. Chapelhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/LesChapel
<p style="text-align: left;"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1480466179?profile=original" alt="" width="896" height="592"/></p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1480467149?profile=original" alt="" width="896" height="592"/></p>
Here are two pics of 30 lbs of debris that was reported to have been removed from a standpipe in Atlanta a few years ago.
<p style="text-align: left;"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1480466179?profile=original" alt="" width="896" height="592"/></p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/1480467149?profile=original" alt="" width="896" height="592"/></p>
Here are two pics of 30 lbs of debris that was reported to have been removed from a standpipe in Atlanta a few years ago. Nick
I am very partial to the…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-28:1219672:Comment:1084332008-12-28T03:23:07.162ZRuss Chapmanhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/RussChapman
Nick<br />
I am very partial to the Akrons, not that my department uses them, but a few collegues and myself did side by side comparisons using digital flow meters, inline gauges and scales. We all agreed that the 1400 series was the best smoothbore nozzle out there. We liked other companie's combos, like you will not beat TFT for a fog nozzle. So we feel we were not influenced, and we came up with our own conclusions. As far as why my FD does not use them? Politics and who the powers that be are…
Nick<br />
I am very partial to the Akrons, not that my department uses them, but a few collegues and myself did side by side comparisons using digital flow meters, inline gauges and scales. We all agreed that the 1400 series was the best smoothbore nozzle out there. We liked other companie's combos, like you will not beat TFT for a fog nozzle. So we feel we were not influenced, and we came up with our own conclusions. As far as why my FD does not use them? Politics and who the powers that be are friends with!<br />
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If you get the Akrons, try them at 40 PSI nozzle pressure instead of 50 PSI. It flows about 175 GPM, and only about 60 lbs nozzle reaction.<br />
Some guys like adding stream shapers, I think the 1400s don't need them. My opinion only.<br />
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<cite>Nick Weiland said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/startwater/forum/topic/show?groupUrl=startwater&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A87421&page=3#1219672Comment108408"><div>Yes sir, it is. Do you think 1 3/8 is better than 1" orfice for a 1 3/4 line, w/ 15/16 tip? Or do you think it will make any difference?</div>
</blockquote> Yes sir, it is. Do you think…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-28:1219672:Comment:1084082008-12-28T01:09:56.328ZNick Weilandhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/NickWeiland
Yes sir, it is. Do you think 1 3/8 is better than 1" orfice for a 1 3/4 line, w/ 15/16 tip? Or do you think it will make any difference?
Yes sir, it is. Do you think 1 3/8 is better than 1" orfice for a 1 3/4 line, w/ 15/16 tip? Or do you think it will make any difference? Nick
I think the Akron 1400 s…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-27:1219672:Comment:1083202008-12-27T19:45:18.542ZRuss Chapmanhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/RussChapman
Nick<br />
I think the Akron 1400 series nozzles are 1 3/8".<br />
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<cite>Nick Weiland said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/startwater/forum/topic/show?groupUrl=startwater&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A87421&page=3#1219672Comment106703"><div>Hey fellas, I have bit of a technical question about smoothbores. I have won the battle at my volley house, and we are purchasing a handful of smoothbores. I was basically getting the Akron FDNY spec nozzles until one dealer said to…</div>
</blockquote>
Nick<br />
I think the Akron 1400 series nozzles are 1 3/8".<br />
<br />
<cite>Nick Weiland said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/startwater/forum/topic/show?groupUrl=startwater&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A87421&page=3#1219672Comment106703"><div>Hey fellas, I have bit of a technical question about smoothbores. I have won the battle at my volley house, and we are purchasing a handful of smoothbores. I was basically getting the Akron FDNY spec nozzles until one dealer said to step up my 1 ½” nozzle. FDNY spec (and correct me if I’m wrong Capt. McCormack) are 1 ½” inlet w/ a 1” orifice and 1 ½” outlet w/ 15/16” tip. That is the nozzle I wanted, but one dealer told me to step up the orifice size to 1 3/8”. I was thinking the bigger orifice may cause more turbulence and lack of a better water stream. Anyone with insight or proven methods please let me know.</div>
</blockquote> Bob
Do the same thing with a…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-27:1219672:Comment:1083182008-12-27T19:43:58.981ZRuss Chapmanhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/RussChapman
Bob<br />
Do the same thing with a candy, and it will not put the nozzle OOS, like a 5 lbs bag of M+Ms or something like that. I did that in a class I taught, and it was an eye opener. Another guy tried doing the same thing, he used sand. One nozzle OOS! LOL!
Bob<br />
Do the same thing with a candy, and it will not put the nozzle OOS, like a 5 lbs bag of M+Ms or something like that. I did that in a class I taught, and it was an eye opener. Another guy tried doing the same thing, he used sand. One nozzle OOS! LOL! This is probably one of the m…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-12-27:1219672:Comment:1082962008-12-27T18:45:16.683ZBob Franklinhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BobFranklin
This is probably one of the most discussions there is in the fire service. If you have never been in a highrise fire with a FOG nozzle, you are in for the suprise of your life. There is nothing like opening the nozzle to check the stream and all of a sudden there is no water! Period! The hose is hard as a rock but no water. Why? All the crap in the piping has stopped at the tip. There is no good way to bleed the trash when it is bigger than the discharge. We had water for about 2 minutes and…
This is probably one of the most discussions there is in the fire service. If you have never been in a highrise fire with a FOG nozzle, you are in for the suprise of your life. There is nothing like opening the nozzle to check the stream and all of a sudden there is no water! Period! The hose is hard as a rock but no water. Why? All the crap in the piping has stopped at the tip. There is no good way to bleed the trash when it is bigger than the discharge. We had water for about 2 minutes and then nothing. What was it? A cigrette package, numerous cigarette butts and piecies of rust as big as a half dollar.<br />
We had flushed the valve before connecting the hoseline.<br />
<br />
The simplest way to duplicate this for the non believers is lay out 150 ft of what ever size hose you use for highrise attack.Charge the line and then bleed it to the point it can be disconnected from pump the outlet. Place a cup of plastic shipping peanuts in the first section at the pump discharge and recharge the line. You will be able to flow water for 30 to 55 seconds before the fog stops up with the peanuts.( The peanuts will not damage the nozzle and can easliy be cleaned out)<br />
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Now repeat the operation with a smoothbore, man what a differance! Seeing is believing. As far as fog nozzles for highrise operations, been there, done that, got the blistered helmet to show for it.<br />
Take care.