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Just read the latest NIOSH report and it spoke about poor hoseline pressure.
We have all had this happen. What can we do to avoid this?

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I'll have to try that one tomorrow, time to pull out my blow up diagrams again. Thanks Russ.
Eric
Who do you have coming? This is what I meant about grabbing guys to help advance hose. I don't know about you, but our Ladder Tower is manned by 2 guys. Crap....I can punch a window out faster than they can get set up, so why not grab them and put them on the hoseline? I digress......if the biggest department in the world, who fights more fires (other than Detroit lately!) puts 2 engines on one hoseline, why don't department like ours do the same? There is NO "truck" or "Engine" in my department. There is just a total sum of all parts trying to put out a fire. We do have SOPs, but they lack job assignments. I grab the truck guys as much as possible! They don't like me!!!!!
Great topic and comments brothers:

The ironic part of all of this, we have to fuss at them for pumping enough pressure to smaller hoselines and chase out the kinks but why is it on 2 1/2" they want to pump 150 psi or more? I don't get it. Pump more to the smaller line, a little less to the bigger.... is this just me? I can't tell you how many times I've seen it, an 1 3/4" like a wet noodle and the 2 1/2" like a steel pipe. I think it goes back to the answervRuss' was given; "Pump 150 no matter what."
I agree with the comments that more training is needed in hose laying. In our case, we try to lay the hose in an serpent pattern, so that as it goes indoors it can be helped along by someone, and it will be free of kinks.

Moving away from the subject, there is talk about choking doors automatically and by default - however, don't forget for a second how this affects the air track and ventilation profile of the building. I am in favor of always having someone tasked with door control immediately behind the nozzle team, who can close or open doors as needed if things go south. This firefighter can also chock doors as he passes them, keeping control of the one just behind. It is always better to close it in a controlled way so the line is not pinched, rather than leaving it to itself.

Be safe,

Mike
Training, training and when you think you have it right do it again. This will leave the nozzle member with a memory of what a properly charged line should feel like. If the pressure is not right it will be quickly recognized when the line is "Flowed prior to entering the fire area". You noticed I said "Flowed" and not "Bled" because you need to see if the line has sufficient pressure. Also overcrowding the nozzle team can lead to poor nozzle pressure because those members trying to get a piece of the action in the fire area are not doing their job of removing kinks, flaking out the line, notifying members of a burst length or advancing the line. Many of these problems exist far behind the nozzle team. This brings us to the second engine company. Many fire departments are not running with enough members on the engine to do the job quickly, efficiently and safely. The members of the second due engine need to ensure the first line is properly stretched, flaked and operating. This may also include establishing a water supply. If the second engine company is not helping with that first line you increase the likely hood of having a line that is not flaked out properly and resulting in poor nozzle pressure.
For an example read a NIOSH report out of the city of Cincinnati where an improperly stretched and flaked out line contributed to a LODD and a tragic story for that fire department. A result, as I was told, was to place a focus on the first line prior to stretching a second line.
Daryl
The Oscar Armstrong LODD should be required instruction at any Engine Company Operations class. I hope I am not offending the Brothers there, as I am sure they are sick of the armchair quarterbacks, but some serious lessons were brought out from that fire. That building was the size of a bungalow. I think now Cinci has re-done their hose layouts. One thing that has not been said in this discussion, but has been said in others, is that the hosebeds layouts themselves have a lot to do with the proper hose stretch and the problems that come with it. As I teach accross my state (Connecticut) I find preconnected hosebeds with a boatload of hose as the host departments are affraid of coming up short. Like Ray has said in the past, too much can be as bad as too little. At least with too little hose, you might not get into the fire area and not get caught, but with too much you will be right in the middle of the fire area, with kinks behind you. Then the pucker factor goes up quite a bit! Members need to take a really close look at their hose bed set ups. Most have been configured decades ago. The landscape and street layout might mean you can stretch with less hose as the frontages have decreased, or in the case of my first due, we now have 1 3/4" static hose beds due to the dramatic increase of heights in our buildings. Also, most members do not know how to estimate the stretch. This should not be considered a big city tactic because many a time I have heard companies screaming for more hose. Conversely, these same companies have screamed for more hose in the fire building when 2 lengths are still on the street! Pre-connects are great, but they have taken the "thinking" out of the hose stretch, and that can prove disasterous. I have taken my guys to structures and asked them what line they will stretch ( our two 1 3/4" preconnects are 150 ft and 200 ft respectively as well as static beds off the rear) and the majority answered with the 200 ft bed, even if the building was 10 feet off the street. The reason was "we don't want to come up short". I digress.....!!!!! Anyway...I am babling, any thoughts?
Be safe
Russ
Russ - You are correct - Over stretching has been a problem at other LODD 's. Kinking, pressure loss and poor fire flow. All engine company officers if not the firefighters themselves need to know how to do a stretch estimate. This idea that we over stretch as an SOP is scary. The problem with preconnects is actually the firefighters not the hose. The firefighters stretch too short or too long. If it is too long they do not know enough to try and break the line to fix the problem. Firefighters who think the couplings are welded together and refuse to shorten the amount of hose being deployed are a problem. If the stretch is short will the line be adjusted or will another be pulled? Many preconnects are the same length or the longest one is pulled first, now what? This is all about awareness and training.
I agree that good hoseline pressure goes back to training, training and more training! I am starting my 39th year in the fire service and I see alot of pump operators today as handle pullers and throttle turners. As long as water is coming out the end of the nozzle everything is OK. Many operators have no concept of friction loss and nozzle pressures. Why? Most firefighters of today have been using "automatic" nozzles and every time you increase the pressure you increase the gallons flowing, maybe.

We did a 9 month study using flow meters and in-line gauges and found that 82% of our automaic nozzles were defective. We had a target flow of 150 gpm. We found that our "automatics" were flowing anywhere from 38 gallons to 148 gallons and the streams looked the same. All the pump operators knew was we pumped at 120 psi regardless.

We found another problem with our light weight hose. The thermo-plastic lining seperated from some of the sections restricting or clogging the line. We now purchase rubber-lined hose for everything. We looked at various nozzles manufactures and chose the Elkhart 4000-14. It has a fog nozzle (150 gpm@ 50 psi) tip screwed onto a 15/16th built-in smoothbore.Our pdp is 90 psi for both attack lines. (FL= 20 per 100 (40psi total) + 50 psi nozzle pressure = 90 Pump discharge pressure)

The next problem found was that our crosslays were 200 feet. Some of our structures are less that 20 feet from the street. We added a wye to the lower 2-1/2 discharge on both sides. Now we pull off the crosslay the amount of hose needed, break it, and connect to the wye set. Some cases we used only 100 feet of hose instead of the 200 feet. Kinks, kinks are everybodies problem. My firefighters had better not pass up a kink as they walk up a line, whether it is a supply line or attack line.

We use a rule of thumb friction loss, 1-1/2 is 30 psi per 100, 1-3/4 is 20 psi per 100, 2-1/2 is 10 per 100 and 3 is 5 per 100. this makes it easier for the pump operator to develope operating pressures faster. All our nozzles are constant gallon flow nozzles whether fog or smoothbore.

Just a little info for the brothers! Take care, be safe.
Bob
What type nozzle are you using? I have heard of this Auto Nozzle problem before. I said this before, Autos have been a 4 decade long experiment that has gone bad, but the purse string holders don't realize it. They need constant maintainence to keep up their ratings. Be safe
Russ

Bob Franklin said:
I agree that good hoseline pressure goes back to training, training and more training! I am starting my 39th year in the fire service and I see alot of pump operators today as handle pullers and throttle turners. As long as water is coming out the end of the nozzle everything is OK. Many operators have no concept of friction loss and nozzle pressures. Why? Most firefighters of today have been using "automatic" nozzles and every time you increase the pressure you increase the gallons flowing, maybe.

We did a 9 month study using flow meters and in-line gauges and found that 82% of our automaic nozzles were defective. We had a target flow of 150 gpm. We found that our "automatics" were flowing anywhere from 38 gallons to 148 gallons and the streams looked the same. All the pump operators knew was we pumped at 120 psi regardless.

We found another problem with our light weight hose. The thermo-plastic lining seperated from some of the sections restricting or clogging the line. We now purchase rubber-lined hose for everything. We looked at various nozzles manufactures and chose the Elkhart 4000-14. It has a fog nozzle (150 gpm@ 50 psi) tip screwed onto a 15/16th built-in smoothbore.Our pdp is 90 psi for both attack lines. (FL= 20 per 100 (40psi total) + 50 psi nozzle pressure = 90 Pump discharge pressure)

The next problem found was that our crosslays were 200 feet. Some of our structures are less that 20 feet from the street. We added a wye to the lower 2-1/2 discharge on both sides. Now we pull off the crosslay the amount of hose needed, break it, and connect to the wye set. Some cases we used only 100 feet of hose instead of the 200 feet. Kinks, kinks are everybodies problem. My firefighters had better not pass up a kink as they walk up a line, whether it is a supply line or attack line.

We use a rule of thumb friction loss, 1-1/2 is 30 psi per 100, 1-3/4 is 20 psi per 100, 2-1/2 is 10 per 100 and 3 is 5 per 100. this makes it easier for the pump operator to develope operating pressures faster. All our nozzles are constant gallon flow nozzles whether fog or smoothbore.

Just a little info for the brothers! Take care, be safe.

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