What do you use for your high rise pack?

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Permalink Reply by Adam Bean on September 18, 2008 at 12:37pm

Eddie,
We use 200' of 2 1/2" set up in 4 - 50' bundles. All the Engines have them set up a little differently but most have a smoothbore pipe attached to one of the lengths and some type of a bag with spanners, wood chocks, spare valve handles etc.. in it. They work out fairly well depending on how much the company has trained with it. Normally the first bundle witht the pipe goes to the fire floor, one bundle goes to the floor below and stretches up towards the fire floor and the other two get flaked out on the stairwell above the fire floor (pulling 2 1/2" downhill during your advance is so much easier and faster). Oh, and they all get connected together at some point too, just to clarify. Hope it helps.

Adam Bean

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Permalink Reply by Alex Gossett on September 20, 2008 at 8:10am

2.5 We just switched to Denver folds with 1 1/8 tip. The system you are using we just switched from. 1.75 lines does not have the flow capacity and too much friction loss for high rise / stand pipe operations. Big lines will extinguish small fire also. Small and medium departments only have one shot at the fire before running out of resaources so we have to hit it with everything we got in the first try.

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Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on September 20, 2008 at 12:23pm

I agree Alex this idea that departments can not use 2 1/2 because its hard work is a cop out. I understand how the bundle works, part of the problem with this set up is where you start your deployment. If it is from the landing below you will have to take the charged line up the stairs and most likely deal with the doorway as an additional turn. If it is kept on the fire floor landing you must be carefull to exclude all from that area as the expanding hose can cause the landing to get crowded and lead to firefighter injuries. This type of hose deployment method is one of many that should be investigarted by departments. While your at it you should look at WHY 2 1/2 hose is recommended off of standpipes.

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Permalink Reply by Eddie Crombie on September 21, 2008 at 8:54am

I agree 100% with you Ray. At my previous department we used the denver lay with 4 sections of 2 1/2 hose finnished with an 1 1/4 smooth bore. Big fire potential should equal big hose. I wish we carried that style instead, but the West Coast style load is a huge improvement to our current setup. I have realized that inorder to improve and change things here it takes baby steps. Hopfully the next step we take will be to ditch the 1 3/4 and go with 2 1/2.

Thanks for all your replies!

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Permalink Reply by Alex Gossett on September 22, 2008 at 12:14pm

three sections of 2.5.Each section is bunddled in a horseshoe with three velcro straps. One section has a shut off with a 1 1/8 tip. Each person can grab a fold and place on their back.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on September 22, 2008 at 5:25pm

Go to YouTube and type in Cleveland load or The Bundles

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Permalink Reply by Adam Miceli on September 27, 2008 at 9:37am

First let me say, the Youtube video was very well done. The load certainly looks easy to make up and deploy. The issue I'd have is that as a high-rise load two things seem to be flawed. One is the use of the 100 psi fog nozzle and the is second the use of 1.75" hose. The issue is that most older buildings standpipe systems were designed for 65 psi max. In fact, they may have 65 psi or less PRV's on lower floors. I believe this was one of the factors of the One Meridian Plaza tragedy in Philly years ago. Newer standpipe systems are required to be 100 psi capable, but the use of a 100 psi fog nozzle doesn't allow for any friction loss, which will be dramatically higher in 1.75" hose. As Alex noted for us smaller FD's we often cannot afford to make any mistakes on the first line as completing all the tasks at a fire where the standpipe is needed will be very resource taxing. Using the 2.5" hose with a solid bore break apart nozzle, allows you to reduce the line for mop up. Certainly using a low pressure fog nozzle will gain some pressure back, but I'd still rather take the biggest gun to the fight than have to return to the truck for it later.

Another note, it seems that many firefighters and dept's believe that two 1.75" lines are the same as one 2.5" with a 1 1/4" tip. If you need 300+ gpm to the seat of the fire, it should come from one orifice not two. Each 150-180 gpm stream will lose more water and energy trying to reach the seat than the one 2.5" stream, with the end result of less water on the seat.

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Permalink Reply by Jamie Barnes on September 27, 2008 at 10:36am

I have seen the Cleveland load used a little differently than as a high rise pack. One department I was on used it as an apartment pack, not a high rise pack. Deployment was simply pulling a 2.5 with a gated wye and connecting this pack at the end. We had many old apartment complexes where the buildings did not have good access for a preconnect. This application worked very well. We would also use this in residential housing units as well, where we could not get an engine close enough. I am sure everyone has some of those houses in their district.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on September 27, 2008 at 10:55am

Excellent points Adam,

We use that particular load with a 2 1/2" equipped with a 1 1/4" smoothbore. In a stairwell, the top of the load can be lifted and placed against a wall, when the line is charged it remains upright. This allows the egress path to remain in tack.

Every time we train with it just gets better. Whatever method a department decides to use, it must be practiced to the point that crews deploy it efficiently.

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Permalink Reply by Daryl Liggins on October 2, 2008 at 12:46am

When you say "a lot of success" what do you mean. Are you using this "successfully" in a lot of drills" or "successfully" in a lot of high-rise fires. aA150' of 1 3/4" is a heavy load for climbing up stairs in a high-rise. How many flights have you climbed with that, made it to the floor and donned your gear then went to work. I'm not saying I have done it a million times. I just question when departments that say it works because most fire departments, with exception of the rally large metropolitan fire departments are getting many high-rise fires.
1 3/4" hose will eventually bite you in the a** when used for high-rise fires. This line is for residential house fires, apartment fires, trailers ect. High-rise firefighting is a different animal and if you are using it as a "Hose pack" I suggest not calling it a "high-rise pack" and calling it what it is a "hose pack". My suggestion is get something more appropriate for high-rise fires and keep using your hose pack for what ever else you are using it for. Follow the experience of departments that are truly working high-rise fires on a regular basis.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on October 2, 2008 at 6:33pm

Daryl, Who are you refering to?

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Permalink Reply by Daryl Liggins on October 2, 2008 at 11:40pm

The original posting?

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