Do you teach your firefighters how to read heat? If so, how? - Fire Engineering Training Community2024-03-29T14:39:04Zhttps://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?commentId=1219672%3AComment%3A43062&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A10607&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWe are taught to read heat or…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-10-30:1219672:Comment:916732008-10-30T22:29:29.447ZBrenda Tenneyhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BrendaTenney
We are taught to read heat or smoke by the color,not only by touching..But ! all fire fighters are taught to gear up,i mean all gear.,if they are entering and structure fire.Fighting fire from and distance out side is different, you may not have to wear the hoods,depends on how large the structure fire is,at the scene...From the beginning and the start ,,and fire fighter is taught all the ways to fight fire,no difference from and Officer,or Lit.. At most of the scenes,we are watched by our…
We are taught to read heat or smoke by the color,not only by touching..But ! all fire fighters are taught to gear up,i mean all gear.,if they are entering and structure fire.Fighting fire from and distance out side is different, you may not have to wear the hoods,depends on how large the structure fire is,at the scene...From the beginning and the start ,,and fire fighter is taught all the ways to fight fire,no difference from and Officer,or Lit.. At most of the scenes,we are watched by our county,fire Officials,that will ,and do keep records of how fire departments are running ,and looking on,checking us out..<br />
We are told by our chief,officers,who goes in,and who fights the fire from out side..WE work as and TEAM..... Hello Jay,
Excellant question…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-07-15:1219672:Comment:670682008-07-15T03:37:59.431ZBob Franklinhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BobFranklin
Hello Jay,<br />
Excellant question. As being now classified as a "salty fireman" with 48 years in the service, as you stated, we did not have the safety gear now avaiable today. My first gear was an old leather hement (bougth in 1938), canvus Body Guard coat and pants, yes canvus! like what salvage covers were made from. The inner liner was a rubber backed wool liner that snapped into the canvus coat, Siren brand rubber boots and suspenders. I had to purchase my gloves and those were mule hide…
Hello Jay,<br />
Excellant question. As being now classified as a "salty fireman" with 48 years in the service, as you stated, we did not have the safety gear now avaiable today. My first gear was an old leather hement (bougth in 1938), canvus Body Guard coat and pants, yes canvus! like what salvage covers were made from. The inner liner was a rubber backed wool liner that snapped into the canvus coat, Siren brand rubber boots and suspenders. I had to purchase my gloves and those were mule hide brand. The first indiacation was as your ears began to warm up it was time to go. When I began in 1969, the materials we encountered were still basically class a. Our scba was a 15 minute sling pack which we used only after we cound no longer stand the smoke. Believe it or not, you could eat a lot of smoke before donning the air pack.<br />
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Many fires were extinguished with a 3/4 booster line. With class a material burning you had a longer time frame to get in and direct attack the fire. The smoke was an indication, if it suddenly began to bank to the floor, it was time to back out. If the fire started to dance the cieling in the smoke, you were in a bad situation and time to back out.<br />
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We were taught the combination fog attack from the outsidew of the building if heavly involved. If we had fire showing from two or more window we used the combination attack. Everything in the interior is ruined by the heat and smoke, if no person is susspected to be in the house, combine was the answer. You could take a 1500 sq ft, house with heavy fire showing from all the windows, 2- 1-1/2 lines, 125 gpm nozzle, PDP @ 150, two firefighters could start at the front of the house, stick nozzle inmto the window, rotate clockwise until smoke turns white, shut-off ,go to next window and do the same. When you got to the back of the house, the fire was basically out and you used only about 300 gallons of water.<br />
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Today we have a total differant varity of chemicals burning. Flash points are lower, flashovers are quicker due to synythtic material used today revert back to basic matterial when heated and that basic material is petrolium based. In my early career from the start of a fire flash over was an estimated to be 10 to 12 minutes. Today, flashover may be 4 to 6 minutes after ignition.<br />
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Our PPE protects us to much! We are allowed to go deeper into the red zone and we are insulated from the tremendose heat being generated. I have exited a home, where my helnet was scorched, face shied bubbled, scba strap melted, all refelective stripping gone of PPE coat.<br />
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How do we teach firefighters how to read heat and smoke? Using real fires are to only way. Firefighter must learn the differant layers of smoke and what they represent.Simulators and drill buildings with hay fire will give a false since of security. Doctors don't learn how to operate using fake people. For our field, we must be allow to burn structures to introduce them to the real thing. Yes, some who apparently lacked real under standing of fire behavior and got some people injured and killed. In the years we allowed to burn abandoned homes, over 100, we never had a reported injury, minor burns, yes, sore bones due to climbing over tables and chairs, yes. We were very careful in how we set up the building and head count in, head count out.<br />
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Take care and be safe!<br />
Captain BOB Typicaly the new fireman on o…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-06-23:1219672:Comment:631062008-06-23T21:37:39.351ZTom Londohttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/ThomasLondo
Typicaly the new fireman on our dept. are drilled heavily on wearing their PPE correctly and at all times. It is not untill they have some seasoning and further education that we start discussing monitoring heat. As their education progresses we train on multiple aspects of monitoring heat and knowing what to expect from recognition of building and occupancy types. We recently hosted a reading smoke class which shed light on heat conditions for many of our younger fireman. Color, push,…
Typicaly the new fireman on our dept. are drilled heavily on wearing their PPE correctly and at all times. It is not untill they have some seasoning and further education that we start discussing monitoring heat. As their education progresses we train on multiple aspects of monitoring heat and knowing what to expect from recognition of building and occupancy types. We recently hosted a reading smoke class which shed light on heat conditions for many of our younger fireman. Color, push, velocity, and level of smoke were all covered. As well as how different types of buildings retain heat.<br />
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Many of the more seasoned members of our dept. wear hoods with the flaps rolled up on their helmet. Once in a while you will hear someone prefer the flaps with no hood. I always tell them that with the hood and no flaps its a quick deployment to roll down your flaps and save your neck and ears. If all you have on is your flaps and its too hot, well your s**t out of luck and your gonna get burned. We also preech the use of a smooth bore nozzle aimed over the companies head to check for heat. With the smooth bore you don't risk the steam burn and upset of the thermal ballance of the room and you typically get a good return of H2O from overhead to tell you how hot it really is over your head. This is very usefull in commercial structures with higher than normal ceilings and some of todays taller entryways with 2 story high ceilings. Ok, just a thought here. Not…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-06-12:1219672:Comment:612092008-06-12T13:12:02.042ZBenjamin Lunsfordhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BenjaminLunsford
Ok, just a thought here. Not a big fan of exposing ANY skin in a fire! Isn't that why we wear the gear to begin with? This is not a good idea to train the guys to do that! By exposing the skin, you are exposing them to the higher risk of burns on their wrist areas. It only takes one time with someone getting burned and the insurance folks asking if they had their gear on correctly. If they give the reply of how they were trained, this might cause some problem with coverage! Always wear the…
Ok, just a thought here. Not a big fan of exposing ANY skin in a fire! Isn't that why we wear the gear to begin with? This is not a good idea to train the guys to do that! By exposing the skin, you are exposing them to the higher risk of burns on their wrist areas. It only takes one time with someone getting burned and the insurance folks asking if they had their gear on correctly. If they give the reply of how they were trained, this might cause some problem with coverage! Always wear the right gear and wear the right gear right! I train my folks to watch the…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-06-12:1219672:Comment:612042008-06-12T13:08:37.021ZBenjamin Lunsfordhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BenjaminLunsford
I train my folks to watch the conditions as they enter the fire area. From the behavior of the smoke to the "off gassing" of the walls and ceilings as they enter. I start with the rookies and train them to be aware of their surroundings from the start. I use a helmet mounted camera in my training fires to use as a teaching tool after the burns to show them what the room is doing while they are in there. Afterward, we watch the video and see what the heat is doing in a fire. On the next training…
I train my folks to watch the conditions as they enter the fire area. From the behavior of the smoke to the "off gassing" of the walls and ceilings as they enter. I start with the rookies and train them to be aware of their surroundings from the start. I use a helmet mounted camera in my training fires to use as a teaching tool after the burns to show them what the room is doing while they are in there. Afterward, we watch the video and see what the heat is doing in a fire. On the next training we do, which may be a few weeks apart, we use that knowledge and apply it inside the structure. With the ability to show what heat does in the building, I can get the firefighters prepared to read the smoke and heat prior to ever entering a burning building. Just another tool in the box! Joseph,
While I like Daves c…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-06-11:1219672:Comment:609292008-06-11T04:18:01.804ZJay Robinsonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JayRobinson
Joseph,<br />
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While I like Daves class, my point was not how to read smoke outside the building. Or to read the smokes' direction or velocity inside the building. It takes our gear (new) about 5 minutes in 500 deg. heat to be saturated and non-protective. And with most of our young firefighters and probably us, we love to rush in and 'get some'. But teaching a firefighter to expose a little skin isn't going to kill them. We use the back of the hand because you can check different heat levels from…
Joseph,<br />
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While I like Daves class, my point was not how to read smoke outside the building. Or to read the smokes' direction or velocity inside the building. It takes our gear (new) about 5 minutes in 500 deg. heat to be saturated and non-protective. And with most of our young firefighters and probably us, we love to rush in and 'get some'. But teaching a firefighter to expose a little skin isn't going to kill them. We use the back of the hand because you can check different heat levels from floor to ceiling easily without getting your head in the bad stuff. I don't advocate pulling your glove fully off and jamming your hand into the overhead. We teach peeling back the glove so that a small patch of skin on the back of the hand is exposed and taking it from ground level where it is coolest to the overhead slowly. At first it isn't a fast process, but as the students progress you see them checking their environment quickly while advancing hoselines or doing searches. Of course, its not for everyone. I was just wondering what you guys did. Thanks for the comments, guys. Keep 'em comming.<br />
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Jrob Fire location is normally det…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-06-10:1219672:Comment:607282008-06-10T06:03:11.567ZRon Becknellhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/RonBecknell
Fire location is normally determined by a member on scene before the trucks arrive via a walk around or reports from neighbors/owners. Room layout is simple when the homeowner is frantic in the front yard screaming about their house I just calmly ask them how do you get to that room from inside, is it the 2nd or 3rd door down the hallway etc. Fortuanately in some of our newer neighbor hoods the houses are very similar in style and layout. So when we respond to the famous CO2 alarm I make it a…
Fire location is normally determined by a member on scene before the trucks arrive via a walk around or reports from neighbors/owners. Room layout is simple when the homeowner is frantic in the front yard screaming about their house I just calmly ask them how do you get to that room from inside, is it the 2nd or 3rd door down the hallway etc. Fortuanately in some of our newer neighbor hoods the houses are very similar in style and layout. So when we respond to the famous CO2 alarm I make it a point to "snoop" around the house I have the crew read every room with the gas monitor, this is an excellent oppurtunity to learn the layout and attic access and look for void areas behind knee walls and where they are accessed from. Calls like this to 3 or 4 different house styles you pretty much know the layout of every house in the neighborhood. Even the most pain in the a** call can be a training. And we get plenty of these, we actually carry spare batteries so we can replace the batteries in the detector while we are there, this is normally the reason we were called in the first place, occupant: ' Well, it has been beeping every few minutes since I got home from work I didn't know what to do so I waited until it woke me up at 2 am to call you to check it out." We try to teach everyone. Onc…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-06-10:1219672:Comment:607252008-06-10T05:33:16.925ZRon Becknellhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/RonBecknell
We try to teach everyone. Once a firefighter passes thier basic interior fire fighting class we try get them into the class taught by Gaston Fire College utilizing the "Flashover Simulator" ( not sure why it is called a simulator since it does flash over) The class has pretty good pictures and commentary of firefighters that have been caught in a flashover. It also teaches, as we do, that it may be necesarry to open the nozzle up for a quick burst at the ceiling over your head if visibility is…
We try to teach everyone. Once a firefighter passes thier basic interior fire fighting class we try get them into the class taught by Gaston Fire College utilizing the "Flashover Simulator" ( not sure why it is called a simulator since it does flash over) The class has pretty good pictures and commentary of firefighters that have been caught in a flashover. It also teaches, as we do, that it may be necesarry to open the nozzle up for a quick burst at the ceiling over your head if visibility is low. If water falls down things are okay if nothing comes down beware the ceiling temperatures are above 212 deg.F. We also train them using videos of backdrafts and smoke explosions so they know what to look for. We are an agressive department and perform interior attacks anytime conditions allow. But I remind our members that I would much rather explain to some homeowner why his house is flooded than explain to thier families why they aren't coming home.<br />
If you have access to a Flashover Simulator I highly suggest getting it for a training it is well worth the money. Using the techniques of readi…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-06-03:1219672:Comment:592622008-06-03T13:46:17.293ZJoseph M. Stapp Sr.https://community.fireengineering.com/xn/detail/u_2tp8t2sl2b3dg
Using the techniques of reading smoke taught by Dave Dodson can help you read a building in term of heat. When interior of a structure fire, turn you light box up into the smoke and look at the color, density and how fast it is moving. Also the use of a TIC with a temp reading on it to help judge the conditions within the building. I am in no way a proponet of using body parts to judge temp in a build. The idea of sending everyone home after their shift in the same mannor in which they showed…
Using the techniques of reading smoke taught by Dave Dodson can help you read a building in term of heat. When interior of a structure fire, turn you light box up into the smoke and look at the color, density and how fast it is moving. Also the use of a TIC with a temp reading on it to help judge the conditions within the building. I am in no way a proponet of using body parts to judge temp in a build. The idea of sending everyone home after their shift in the same mannor in which they showed up, must be the highest priority. Yes. I think it is very impor…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-06-02:1219672:Comment:590712008-06-02T18:16:26.675ZEddie Crombiehttps://community.fireengineering.com/xn/detail/u_6om67yclnuoe
Yes. I think it is very important to teach both old and new firefighters how to read heat. In todays fires there are a lot of plastics burning in lightweight structures which translates in higher temps and faster collapse. Although heat conditions are an important factor, it is only a small peice of a bigger picture. Stiuational awareness should be a big emphasis on todays firefighters. I feel that the big push for RIT, bail out bags, rescue filters, ect have given some firefighters a false…
Yes. I think it is very important to teach both old and new firefighters how to read heat. In todays fires there are a lot of plastics burning in lightweight structures which translates in higher temps and faster collapse. Although heat conditions are an important factor, it is only a small peice of a bigger picture. Stiuational awareness should be a big emphasis on todays firefighters. I feel that the big push for RIT, bail out bags, rescue filters, ect have given some firefighters a false sence of security.<br />
Please dont get me wrong. All of these are extremely important and should be taught and used. However I have heard numerous times "if things go wrong I can bail out the window" or "If I get stuck we have a rit company". If your department is like so many others one big concern is man power. A 2-4 man RIT company is not going to get my big ass out of a building on the first try and if I have to use my bail-out rope out a window I wont feel cool because I did.<br />
Strong situational awareness can eliminate a lot of LODD injuries or deaths. Simple things are often forgot or not reinforced like reading smoke/ heat conditions upon entering vs exit, listening to all radio communications, knowing all your means of egress, knowing what the difference is between burn tower heat and residential fire heat, ect.<br />
Personally I wear a hood without ear flaps and can peel back my hood if needed. But I feel that before the temp tells you its time to leave some strong situational awareness will tell you even sooner.<br />
As far as teaching this to the men you need to stress the down and dirty basics along with using aquired structures and tower evolutions wisely to stress this awareness in a controled envoronment. Just have one evolution where you just read conditions and explain what the changes mean and when they happened. The best way to learn is to just get out there and do it.