Length of 3" hose in supply portion of highrise pack

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Brian Brush on May 8, 2011 at 5:39pm

Bill if the purpose of the supply section is just to move the gated wye away from the standpipe consider going without it. Instead use elbows and an inline pressure gauge.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on May 9, 2011 at 1:46pm

-Well, using the word "standard" is something I'm not certain about. It may be standard in your town or area but the use of 3" hose is not a national standard by any means. In fact 3" hose, when viewed from a national perspective, is not a fire service standard either.
-The fact is that stand pipe systems, in order to meet NFPA guidelines and uniform fire codes, are designed to be used in conjunction with 2.5" hose and a smooth bore play pipe. The pump pressure, elevation and line and nozzle type are all factored into the stand pipe design. Stand pipes were never and are not now designed for fog nozzles, which need 100 psi to generate 100 gpm minimum (staggering when compared to 2.5 and a one inch tip produces aprx 210 gpms at aprx 75 psi) , nor where they designed for the 1.75" attack line. Remember, over pumping a line will generate internal turbulence and friction loss causing a poor stream as much as under pumping.
-Gating down the 2.5" hose into two 1.75" lines with fog nozzles is something many departments do in order to get "several" lines into operation. A good sounding idea until you do the math. It is actually more effective to operate one 2.5" with a smooth bore play pipe as apposed to two 1.75" with fog nozzles. Do the math on this, its very surprising when friction loss is added into the equation.
-Gating down to the 1.75 is fine for mop up or smaller fires but the rule of thumb is that if the fire has control of more than two residential size rooms or if operating on upper floors (because of the time delay in getting the line in operation) the 2.5" is the line to operate.
-Many FD's that routinely perform stand pipe operations have learned that the operation requires the 2.5" line with a smooth bore play pipe. My understanding is that pressure reducers installed in the stand pipe to allow 1.75" operations are no longer permissible, thanks to the Meridian Plaza fire in Phillie.
-The one thing we'll do is add the elbow to help eliminate the kink coming off the stand pipe if the outlet is at the wrong angle, pointing out at 90 degrees instead of straight down. Usually we'll only gate down the line to the 1.75" with a fog nozzle for mop up operations.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on May 9, 2011 at 2:51pm

Bill, 

I agree with both Brian and Mike!  If you are just looking to get that wye away from the standpipe, then the inline gauge and elbow is the way to go.

Many folks throughout the country frown on the use of 2.5" hose for high rise firefighting, but as far as I am concerned it is the only way to go.  What is the main reason that you hear folks NOT using 2.5" hose?  It is too cumbersome to move!  This is a total cop-out answer, the real reason is that they have not trained on using 2.5" hose.  A 3 person team CAN maneuver a 2.5" with very little problem if they train! 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Nick J. Salameh on May 10, 2011 at 1:37pm

Bill,

 

The 8' section of 3" supply hose does not have to be that long.

 

My department uses a 6' section of 3" supply.  This provides a number of benefits:

 

• 6' section is not so long or so short it becomes a problem.
• It brings the gated Wye to ground level to improve visibility and heat conditions in the event things deteriorate, granted we hook up at least one floor below the fire floor.
• We do include an inline gauge to ensure adequate operating pressure.
• We utilize 200' of 1 3/4" hose, mainly in residential high rises, which supplies an Elkart Fire Chief fog nozzle and break-away 15/16" nozzle.
• We utilize 100' of 2 1/2" hose for commercial high rises, which supplies a light weight nozzle with an 1 1/4" nozzle.  The intention of this line is to marry it with the second due engine company's 100' pack for a total of 200' which is maneuvered effectively by 2 engine companies to ensure a large volume of fire is delivered to the seat of the fire effectively and efficiently.  The only thing I don't like about our system is having to rely on another company to complete our line.  If the other company incorrectly brings in their 1 3/4" line instead of their 2.5" line, then crews will either begin to attack the fire with a smaller diameter line, which may not do the trick or be delayed in delivering water to the fire.

Regardless of what you carry, make sure it fits your needs appropriately and ongoing training needs to be constant to maintain effectiveness.

 

Nick

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Nick J. Salameh on May 10, 2011 at 1:41pm

Correction/addition.

 

I'd like to correct my statement about delivering a large volume of "fire" to the seat of the fire.  You all know I meant "water".

 

Also, the supply section assists when having to hook up to standpipes that are located in cabinets throughout the hallways of buildings which may or may not provide a stairwell standpipe connection.  Again, the supply helps to connect to these sometimes limited space connections and brings your work area closer to the ground for improved visibility/heat conditions.

 

Nick

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Kevin Dippolito on May 10, 2011 at 3:32pm

Bill,

I know you referred to it as a "high rise pack", but is that what the hose is most likely used on - high rise jobs? I have similar "high rise bags" on my vollie and career engines, but in all honesty, we use them more often at our garden style apartment complexes more than our mid or high rise buildings. In our case, we will hand-stretch a larger line in to the court yard, then attach our "high rise" bag to it. This works well for us.

 

On actual mid/high rise jobs, the engine co. will shoulder carry 2.5" to the appropriate floor and connect to the standpipe.

 

Kevin

  

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by bill moyer on May 16, 2011 at 6:42am

To All, thank you for your time to respond to my question.  You have all provided great feed back and certainly answered my question.  Be safe. 

Kevin Dippolito said:

Bill,

I know you referred to it as a "high rise pack", but is that what the hose is most likely used on - high rise jobs? I have similar "high rise bags" on my vollie and career engines, but in all honesty, we use them more often at our garden style apartment complexes more than our mid or high rise buildings. In our case, we will hand-stretch a larger line in to the court yard, then attach our "high rise" bag to it. This works well for us.

 

On actual mid/high rise jobs, the engine co. will shoulder carry 2.5" to the appropriate floor and connect to the standpipe.

 

Kevin

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Nick J. Salameh on July 3, 2018 at 10:38am

Bill,

Sorry its taken so long to respond back on your question.  Our high rise packs are not just limited to high rise (standpipe) operations.  We too use them as you indicated for set back garden apartments and any other applications where use of the packs would assist in getting lines stretched where needed and water on the fire.
 
Kevin Dippolito said:

Bill,

I know you referred to it as a "high rise pack", but is that what the hose is most likely used on - high rise jobs? I have similar "high rise bags" on my vollie and career engines, but in all honesty, we use them more often at our garden style apartment complexes more than our mid or high rise buildings. In our case, we will hand-stretch a larger line in to the court yard, then attach our "high rise" bag to it. This works well for us.

 

On actual mid/high rise jobs, the engine co. will shoulder carry 2.5" to the appropriate floor and connect to the standpipe.

 

Kevin

  

• ▶ Reply

▶ Reply to Discussion