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I'm bringing this one back to the top. My volly company just experienced this situation and the result is that one got blistered ears in which he had to get skin grafts. It was a mobile home, single family dwelling, with fire pushing out the front of the house onto the front deck. The attack team took the line to the rear and entered. They said they encountered heavy black smoke, high heat, no visibility. The first nozzleman opened the nozzle for a few seconds (I'm not sure how long) and then moved forward. They encountered a tv and a chair and the nozzleman passed the nozzle off to the back-up man to take around the corner of the chair. The back-up man opened the nozzle (they've not said if they saw fire or not at this point--they just said that he opened the nozzle) and that's when the original nozzleman felt his ears start to "sting". Some of us have discussed this to learn and teach how to prevent this from happening. Well coordinated ventilation and attack probably could have prevented this. Please give your thoughts and opinions. I'm not "Monday morning quarterbacking" just looking for more info on how to learn from our mistakes and share with the others. We've discussed this before but it seems like it hasn't settled in. The gentleman that got burned is doing great. Thanks in advance for the assistance.
Larry
ps--I wasn't on the first due company, so I got there late in the ball game. This is information told to me by the nozzleman and others on the first due engine.
He said that his hood was on and that his flaps were down. I asked him twice what pattern and did he check it before he went in. No answer. His hood is not damaged at all.
I definitely agree with you on this one Ray. You should not open a line in smoke unless your pinned down to the floor by the heat. This is really only to protect your own butt so you can fall back into a safe position until adequate ventilation can be acheived and you can make an advance. I would add one thing and let me know what you think about this.
In a structure where I am a little suspect on how high the ceiling is and have a heavy snotty smoke condition I would throw a quick blast up at the ceiling (just a second or so). This does two things for me, it gives me an idea of how high the ceiling really is and lets me know a little bit about what the conditions are up there. Throw some water up there and it either does not come back down or you hear it boil when it hits the ceiling tells me the smoke could be ready to pop and we need to fall back till ventilation is effective. I feel all too much crews are not doing this in large structures and by the time you feel that heat on your back it might already be to late. We are getting in too deep without knowing the condtions high over our heads and find ourselves bailing out or even worse.
In a regular residential structure your gonna feel the heat quick and you can take action to protect yourself right away but in a super market or department store there may be 10 or 20 feet of smoke and heat over your head. By the time you feel that "pin you to the floor" heat the smoke up in that large ceiling area is gonna light off a lot quicker than in a residential structure. Even now a days in these new mcmansions and qiant houses with large open great rooms, two level entries, etc.. we should consider giving the ceiling a quick shot just to give us a clue on what we are dealing with.
Guys
If you are penciling a smoke condition to advance into a fire, you are asking for a boat load of problems. Penciling started in the early 70s...AS AN INSTRUCTIONAL TOOL! I know it was said in this post before. If you guys even think of putting water on smoke, it must be hot enough to do so, as no one here are idiots and want to make a lights out scenerio. When you do, open up all the way, advance down the hall, and put the fire out! With the fuels of today, the smoke is the fire! God I will be happy when someone finally puts this penciling thing to bed!
Guys
If you are penciling a smoke condition to advance into a fire, you are asking for a boat load of problems. Penciling started in the early 70s...AS AN INSTRUCTIONAL TOOL! I know it was said in this post before. If you guys even think of putting water on smoke, it must be hot enough to do so, as no one here are idiots and want to make a lights out scenerio. When you do, open up all the way, advance down the hall, and put the fire out! With the fuels of today, the smoke is the fire! God I will be happy when someone finally puts this penciling thing to bed!
Brothers,
Sometimes its funny to see how far we have advanced in the fire service only to return to where we were. How many of us have the antique brass nozzles on our desk or shelf? Were they adjustable?
To say in a blanket statement, "don't open the line into smoke", like most blanket statements, may not be right. As Ray stated in the discussion statement, extremely hot smoke needs some attention.
Two things I have not seen commented on in this discussion are; the advantages of reach that we have with our SB nozzles; and the ability to "see" through the smoke with our TIC. Reach gives us the ability to be in a position of relative safety and still attack the seat of the fire (interior configuration allowing), and the TIC gives the officer, or user, the ability to identify where the extreme heat is. Proper attack is the key as so many have mentioned. If we teach anything to the next generation of firefighters, it should be those things that will save their lives. Time and millions of fires tested methods, that have proven over and over to work....coordinated fire attack, proper application of water, situational awareness and of course outstanding leadership. Its not news to most of us, but this job is HARD and DANGEROUS. Very few things have come along that make it any safer. Let us not be taken in by the latest fad, lets make sure we train to be good at what we know works. Thanks for letting me bend your ear.
Russ Chapman said:Guys
If you are penciling a smoke condition to advance into a fire, you are asking for a boat load of problems. Penciling started in the early 70s...AS AN INSTRUCTIONAL TOOL! I know it was said in this post before. If you guys even think of putting water on smoke, it must be hot enough to do so, as no one here are idiots and want to make a lights out scenerio. When you do, open up all the way, advance down the hall, and put the fire out! With the fuels of today, the smoke is the fire! God I will be happy when someone finally puts this penciling thing to bed!
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