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Do you use a stream shaper on your smooth bore nozzle? Has it improved your operations? If you do not use one - explain why.

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Well a salesman showed up today and I take 2 steps back. First off he shows up with out nozzles. Ok?
Then we talk about the Elkhart Chief Constantflow nozzles we currently have. (My Chief is present). He tells me there the best on the market. There great for flow. I told him if they were so great we wouldnt have him here today to talk to us about solidbores. He then goes on to explain that we are holding the nozzles wrong the pistol grip and nozzle shoud be held more to my chest then out front. And with legs apart? I tell him we are not here to talk about parking lot fires but interior firefighting and that having the nozzle stuck in my armpit because of the nozzle pressure and reaction that I can not safely do my job as a pipeman.And Im not standing.

He then goes on to say that the only reason solidbore is popular is that the US eastren fireservice (He mentions FDNY, BOSTON, CHICAGO) are wild cowboys and killing themselves so they give them a solidbore to protect them in thier rodeo ways............Now Im red in face and told the Chief Im done with this man as he seems to be a fan of the Fog and instead of showing us what we need to know and he bashes fellow firefighters. WTF. Im told to calm down...
He then states we take my Combo and switch the middle for a 50psi setting then the 75-200 we have. I ask him what good that will do. He then states that fog is required because of flashover conditions. Again WTF.
He goes on to state that the nozzle we use needs to be PDP of 190psi. I agree and tell him thats one of the reasons we want to put a solidbore on the rig. He now conviences the Chief to keep the nozzles we have and switch the guts to get a 50psi nozzle.
I ask him if he was ever a firefighter, his answer (NO). I ask him to send a Elkhart solidbore and one of these fancy fog nozzle switch ups and let us real firefighters decide before we deiced to do anything.
The Chief gives me a glare but agrees to see the difference first hand.

So I lost my cool... I should have stayed professional. Where did I go wrong?

Ray McCormack said:
Good Luck Wayne - Let us know what you decide.
Wayne - What I see is a problem just like you saw. I am suprised at the unprofessional way he conducted himself. I would be leary of his "facts". What happened with him also happens with instructors who do not know what they are talking about but tell you as fact. Always check the resume. Better yet check whats missing from it. All his nozzle expertise and he was never a firefighter humm makes sense.
P.S. His comments about FDNY and nozzle position couldn't be more wrong.
Wayne,
The salesman you were dealing with demonstrated very well for all involved his incredible lack of knowledge regarding the fire service, his own products, nozzles in general and their uses and misuses. You simply cannot allow this man to drive your nozzle selection process. You and your fellow members, who have put in the time and research to make yourselves vastly more knowledgeable than this salesman / charlatan, must be the ones who drive the process. If he will not cooperate and provide the amount and type of support that you require contact his supervisor and ask that someone else be provided to assist in your dept's decision making process.
You should also try to involve more than one nozzle manufacturer. You'll get to see and use more products and hopefully it will lead to competitive pricing. Please try to your utmost to avoid being enticed by gimmickry. The conventional smooth bore nozzle is zenith of fire service nozzle design for many reasons. It is safest in terms of type of stream produced and in terms of reliability and durability. It's reliability and durability stem from design simplicity. It has only one moving part, the ball valve. This simplicity of design results in low initial cost and low maintenance requirements. Any gimmicks added onto the pure form of the smooth bore nozzle ultimately tend to degrade one or more of its positive characteristics. The sole over-ridding intent of adding gimmickry to the smooth bore is to add to the profit margins of nozzle manufacturers and salesmen. An unnecessary appendage that I include in the realm of gimmickry is the pistol grip.
My personal preference is the Akron shut-off with a one and three eighths inch waterway conventional quarter-turn (non-split) ball valve. The tip sizes that I prefer are fifteen sixteenths for inch and three quarter hose and inch and an eighth for two and a half inch hose.
Best of luck in your efforts to make improvements,
Stay Low,
Jay Comella
Wayne
Now you know why I hate factory reps! And you are right. They bull#$%^ their way right into the Chief's hearts.
The right questions were asked by you. The wrong answers were givin by the rep. And if your chief had a set he would have listened to you. I guarentee that this guy gave your chief a "deal" in the past, and now your chief feels he owes some sort of allegence. I have seen this happen. Jay is right. Bring in different reps. Let them fight amongst themselves. Most importantly, get your chief to set his own specifications for the nozzles, with the first spec being SB.
Then the reps will leave the combos home.
Remember 2 things. Low bid, and Fogs cost more to make, and cost more to buy....in other words more commision for the rep!!
Don't give up
Rujss
Its fustrating. And yes I agree with looking at other Solid bores then the Elkhart. But for now we need to convince the Chief the Solidbore is another tool in the Engines tool box. Use it when its needed. I will agree that here in Ontario Canada, its not a nozzle used alot. Why I dont know? I do know that we have one school of instruction here in Ontario and they dont use it so others take it as a nozzle of the past. Why cuse they cant think outside the box.

I never once stated to take the fogs off our rigs. They are neded for certain applications.
All Im suggesting is we add 1 smoothbore to our crosslay and 1 to our 2 1/2 rear preconnect. And then decide on a shaper :L) The real topic of this thread.

Thanks Ray and Jay.
As for the FDNY. some people talk the talk and we know the cities on the east coast dont talk it they walk it.
I'll get it done. Just gonna take a while.
Ray
Is it ignorance, stupidity, or jealousy? Great answer.
Russ

Ray McCormack said:
Wayne - What I see is a problem just like you saw. I am suprised at the unprofessional way he conducted himself. I would be leary of his "facts". What happened with him also happens with instructors who do not know what they are talking about but tell you as fact. Always check the resume. Better yet check whats missing from it. All his nozzle expertise and he was never a firefighter humm makes sense.
P.S. His comments about FDNY and nozzle position couldn't be more wrong.
Wyne -
Sounds all too familiar. I had the same thing happen. , I was testing smoothbore with break aparts and one vendor showed up with automatics. When I sent him away he went around me and directly to the chief to sell the automatics. In my case the chief knew what was happening and he later returned with the nozzles we wanted to test. As I have seen all too often a big part of our business/equipment is driven by venders and the promise of big sales.
Stay safe and don't give up
Bob
Wayne, Keep the faith brother! I would have been very furious and probably would have personally escorted that MF'r out of the firehouse :) But like everyone else stated, keep up the good work, and make the push, slow and steady wins the race. I recently made the slow and steady push for s/b's with my volunteer dept. We ended up spending about $1200.00. We got all akron 1400 series shut offs. 3 were 1 1/2 w/ 15/16" tip, and 1 was 2 1/2 w/ 1 1/4 tip. I believe the tip model we got were 1417 straight tip(same as fdny). So far so good, and these would be my choice and recomendations to others.
On a side note, I always keep a spare s/b nozzle with me at the volly house in case something goes wrong.
And at work, I keep a 15/16 tip in my pocket so i can spin the fogs off.
Nick
Great choice for a nozzle. I personally believe they are the best on the market. When I ask students on how they like the nozzle, they all aggree to a FF that it is the best. Be safe
Chip

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