What is the "Best" way to remove the engine from pump gear?? - Fire Engineering Training Community2024-03-29T15:47:29Zhttps://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?commentId=1219672%3AComment%3A126557&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A126505&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi John,
As a Waterous Field…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-30:1219672:Comment:1322912009-03-30T07:12:06.024ZBob Franklinhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BobFranklin
Hi John,<br />
As a Waterous Field Mechanic for over 35 years, here is what you have. The allison automatic transmission has torque that nevers lets the driveline stop turning when you shift to pump gear. Even though the transmission selector swith will be in the nuetral position, the drive live continues to turn. Some times this will not allow th splines on the shift collar gear line uo with the pump drive gear.(Butt-Toothing). In ordger to line up these splines, shift transmission to reverse, then…
Hi John,<br />
As a Waterous Field Mechanic for over 35 years, here is what you have. The allison automatic transmission has torque that nevers lets the driveline stop turning when you shift to pump gear. Even though the transmission selector swith will be in the nuetral position, the drive live continues to turn. Some times this will not allow th splines on the shift collar gear line uo with the pump drive gear.(Butt-Toothing). In ordger to line up these splines, shift transmission to reverse, then neutral and then into "drive" position. This shifting to reverse allows the gears to line-up and complete the shift. Now lets take it out of pump mode and back to road position.<br />
The speedmeter should indicate about 10 to 18 mph while in the neutral position, watch the speedometer dial, sometimes the will bounce twice when you place it into neutral after pumping, after the "second bounce" shift back to Road position. As the apparatus ages, depending on the amount of incidents it responds to, the transmission, not the transfer case, may require you place the shifter into reverse and back to drive to get the splines to line up.<br />
If you get a chance to got to FDIC, come see me at LET'S TALK PUMPS, Thursday April 23 in room 206/207. I will be discussing this very problem.<br />
<br />
Take care & hope this helps,<br />
Bob Franklin Bro
That is called "Buck Toot…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-25:1219672:Comment:1313832009-03-25T16:09:26.248ZRuss Chapmanhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/RussChapman
Bro<br />
That is called "Buck Toothing". That is to be used only if the rig did not go into pump gear to begin with.<br />
<br />
The best way to take a rig out of pump is to follow the manufacturers recomendatioin. Anyone who starts to deviate from that will null and void any manufacturers responsibility in the event of a malfuction. The first step is to place the transmissoin in neutral.<br />
If you have a pnuematic 3 position pump shift, move the lever to the center or nuetral position. Then my advice is to go…
Bro<br />
That is called "Buck Toothing". That is to be used only if the rig did not go into pump gear to begin with.<br />
<br />
The best way to take a rig out of pump is to follow the manufacturers recomendatioin. Anyone who starts to deviate from that will null and void any manufacturers responsibility in the event of a malfuction. The first step is to place the transmissoin in neutral.<br />
If you have a pnuematic 3 position pump shift, move the lever to the center or nuetral position. Then my advice is to go and find something to do for a couple of minutes. Come back and place the pump shift into Road. This gives the gearing time to "spool down" and allow the pump transmissoin to slow down. If it is a 2 position pump shift, place the drive transmission in neutral, then wait for about one minute then shift to road.<br />
If you have a electric pump switch, use the speedometer to come to 0 and then shift back to road.<br />
No matter what type you have, be patient and allow the pump transmission to spool down.<br />
Russ Chapman<br />
Aerial and Pump Certification instructor<br />
Conn. Fire Academy Jon
I am the maintenance off…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-21:1219672:Comment:1303732009-03-21T21:51:07.261ZJohn Robinsonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JohnRobinson
Jon<br />
<br />
I am the maintenance officer/mechanic at my department. I have two of the same trucks ( 96'and 97' model with DD 6V92 ) and have rebuilt both of the pump transmissions. I have stuggled for years with engineers over the proper operation of the road to pump transfer. I have a power point which includes pictures of internal parts and explains in detail how the transfer case works. Educating engineer first is very powerful when sharing the correct way to shift in an out of pump. Most think its…
Jon<br />
<br />
I am the maintenance officer/mechanic at my department. I have two of the same trucks ( 96'and 97' model with DD 6V92 ) and have rebuilt both of the pump transmissions. I have stuggled for years with engineers over the proper operation of the road to pump transfer. I have a power point which includes pictures of internal parts and explains in detail how the transfer case works. Educating engineer first is very powerful when sharing the correct way to shift in an out of pump. Most think its just flipping the switch. I will send you this information if you would like it. Pierce will refer you to the operation manual for the Waterous Pump. I found a gentleman at Supple Brothers in PA. He has worked with Waterous for over 40 years. I beleive he is the authority on all things Waterous and I am very greatful to him for his advice.<br />
<br />
Using reverse is not necessary in a properly operating rig. However it is in my SOP for going into Pump and Back to Road. The use of reverse seriously reduces the potental for damage by allowing the transfer collar to properly align using the non-moving gear in the pump transfer case. I have expiranced the damage first hand. "Also make sure the engine RP…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-20:1219672:Comment:1301612009-03-20T20:58:23.213ZVincent Gattihttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/VincentGatti
"Also make sure the engine RPMs are between 5000 and 7000 before attempting to shift."<br />
<br />
Too many zero's. I'm sure he meant 500 to 700 RPM's
"Also make sure the engine RPMs are between 5000 and 7000 before attempting to shift."<br />
<br />
Too many zero's. I'm sure he meant 500 to 700 RPM's You would be better off findi…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-20:1219672:Comment:1301342009-03-20T20:24:07.024ZTrey Fluddhttps://community.fireengineering.com/xn/detail/u_2iq4wu7s3jm5e
You would be better off finding that information out from the manufacturer of the transmission. I have never hear that here
You would be better off finding that information out from the manufacturer of the transmission. I have never hear that here Hey John
When taking the pump…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-20:1219672:Comment:1300052009-03-20T05:44:16.466ZBob Franklinhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BobFranklin
Hey John<br />
When taking the pump out of pump position to road position, when you go to nuetral, watch the speedometer. It should read 0 and may bounce at least once, then flip the control switch to road position. The reason for going into reverse is to reverse the torque and line the shaft splines up otherwise it will grind when attempting tp shift. Also make sure the engine RPMs are between 5000 and 7000 before attempting to shift.<br />
<br />
If you get a achance come see me at FDIC "Let's Talk Pumps" and…
Hey John<br />
When taking the pump out of pump position to road position, when you go to nuetral, watch the speedometer. It should read 0 and may bounce at least once, then flip the control switch to road position. The reason for going into reverse is to reverse the torque and line the shaft splines up otherwise it will grind when attempting tp shift. Also make sure the engine RPMs are between 5000 and 7000 before attempting to shift.<br />
<br />
If you get a achance come see me at FDIC "Let's Talk Pumps" and i would be glad to discuss it with you.<br />
BOB I have never heard of anythin…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-12:1219672:Comment:1286122009-03-12T19:44:30.478ZEd Laugesenhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/EdLaugesen
I have never heard of anything like this, I got my start on a 1952 Peter-Pirsh on a Ford chasis. It had a non-syncro standard tranny and we just made sure the speedometer was on zero and the pump stopped before shifting back into road gear. We still teach that in my Department, even with the new automatic units. I do know from having to have a Waterous transfer case rebuilt that you have to wait untill everthing is stopped before shifting or you will grind the points on the gear teeth which…
I have never heard of anything like this, I got my start on a 1952 Peter-Pirsh on a Ford chasis. It had a non-syncro standard tranny and we just made sure the speedometer was on zero and the pump stopped before shifting back into road gear. We still teach that in my Department, even with the new automatic units. I do know from having to have a Waterous transfer case rebuilt that you have to wait untill everthing is stopped before shifting or you will grind the points on the gear teeth which help align the gears flat on the slide ring, then it won't shift properly.<br />
<br />
Good hunting This is true as well. Same ty…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-05:1219672:Comment:1267432009-03-05T14:18:57.620ZJared Larnahttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JaredLarna
This is true as well. Same type of actuator different set-up. I still don't see a need for going into reverse before driving. The important thing is that the trans is in neutral and completely stopped before engaging/disengaging pump gear.<br />
<br />
<cite>Vincent Gatti said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?id=1219672%3ATopic%3A126505#1219672Comment126634"><div>PTO is a much different animal than a transfer case. PTO takes power from the transmission whereas…</div>
</blockquote>
This is true as well. Same type of actuator different set-up. I still don't see a need for going into reverse before driving. The important thing is that the trans is in neutral and completely stopped before engaging/disengaging pump gear.<br />
<br />
<cite>Vincent Gatti said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?id=1219672%3ATopic%3A126505#1219672Comment126634"><div>PTO is a much different animal than a transfer case. PTO takes power from the transmission whereas the transfer case takes power after the transmission (power transferred from drive line to pump rather than to rear differential). PTO connection allows vehicle to "pump and roll" while a pump with the transfer case must be stationary. I'm NO EXPERT just relating what I've seen in the fire service.</div>
</blockquote> PTO is a much different anima…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-04:1219672:Comment:1266342009-03-04T23:58:07.498ZVincent Gattihttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/VincentGatti
PTO is a much different animal than a transfer case. PTO takes power from the transmission whereas the transfer case takes power after the transmission (power transferred from drive line to pump rather than to rear differential). PTO connection allows vehicle to "pump and roll" while a pump with the transfer case must be stationary. I'm NO EXPERT just relating what I've seen in the fire service.
PTO is a much different animal than a transfer case. PTO takes power from the transmission whereas the transfer case takes power after the transmission (power transferred from drive line to pump rather than to rear differential). PTO connection allows vehicle to "pump and roll" while a pump with the transfer case must be stationary. I'm NO EXPERT just relating what I've seen in the fire service. I don't know if this will hel…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-03-04:1219672:Comment:1266152009-03-04T21:17:27.339ZJared Larnahttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JaredLarna
I don't know if this will help you or not with the "myth". One of the hats I wear is heavy equipment mechanic. Nuts and bolts of a P.T.O.( power take off that drives the pump) P.T.O. is mounted to the side of the transmission with a protruding gear. When you engage the pump an actuator slides the P.T.O. gear and meshes with a gear in the trans. It also disables the drive gear to the engine. When you put the engine back in gear, the transmission tranfers power from the motor directly to the…
I don't know if this will help you or not with the "myth". One of the hats I wear is heavy equipment mechanic. Nuts and bolts of a P.T.O.( power take off that drives the pump) P.T.O. is mounted to the side of the transmission with a protruding gear. When you engage the pump an actuator slides the P.T.O. gear and meshes with a gear in the trans. It also disables the drive gear to the engine. When you put the engine back in gear, the transmission tranfers power from the motor directly to the pump. Of course this is a simple set up and there are others out there but the concept remains the same. Back to forward or reverse after disconnecting the P.T.O. Unless the manufacturer of the TRANSMISSION states that a certain step be taken to "remesh" the trans. I see no need to do either. Use of the P.T.O in no way other than disableing the drive gear alters the drivability of the engine. As long as the engine is placed in neutral and enough time is allowed for the trans gears to come to a complete stop when engaging/disengaging the pump there should not be any damage or change to the "Meshing" of the trans.<br />
FYI Hope this helps