Fire Ground Communications - Fire Engineering Training Community2024-03-29T15:25:14Zhttps://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?commentId=1219672%3AComment%3A116807&groupId=1219672%3AGroup%3A86238&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A115674&feed=yes&xn_auth=noGreat discussions by all, I a…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2014-04-05:1219672:Comment:5946562014-04-05T23:05:24.335ZEric Michael Ziegelhoferhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/EricMichaelZiegelhofer
<p>Great discussions by all, I agree with majority of everyone's responses. In my department, we have attempted to at least show personnel how to use the radio, what to say, etc., however, there are plenty of personnel who either do not say enough or say entirely too much. As far as the community, our commanding officer, a chief in charge of four stations, will NOT switch to a fireground channel, which a lot of us have argued multiple times that we should place a lot of the communications on…</p>
<p>Great discussions by all, I agree with majority of everyone's responses. In my department, we have attempted to at least show personnel how to use the radio, what to say, etc., however, there are plenty of personnel who either do not say enough or say entirely too much. As far as the community, our commanding officer, a chief in charge of four stations, will NOT switch to a fireground channel, which a lot of us have argued multiple times that we should place a lot of the communications on the tactical channels, simply to relocate a lot of the chatter which ties up the main frequency we often use. The chief who refuses to use a secondary frequency states due to our communications center not recording said channels, in the event of a mayday or other life threatening situation, he is afraid no one will hear said frequency. Of course, I agree on the simple fact of the potential of missing a mayday or other life threatening situation, however, there could be a way to monitor both frequencies, as many municipalities around our first due use secondary channels. This same chief, has been known even when the communications are on a single frequency to not answer his radio. On one incident, I was a back up member on the initial hand line, and attempted to call out to command multiple times to advise the bulk of the fire was knocked, we were checking for extension, and asking for the sprinkler system to be shut down, after multiple call outs prior to giving said report, I was approached by another chief who simply asked what I had and relayed the message directly to the communications center and asked the dispatcher to place the information on the notes portion of our printout. Upon completion of additional assignments, at the request of the chief who relayed my messages, I then exited the building to go through the rehabilitation process and was approached by the highest chief who rather than begin to ask appropriate questions, he decided to scream at me as if I burned the structure down and lost lives, of course, I never backed down, and simply asked without raising my voice, where he was when I called out to him five times, he stated "Oh I turned my radio off and walked around the building." I then stated a 360 was already performed, and while I can appreciate his wishing to gain a view of his own, he needed to keep his radio on and retain communications upon assuming command from the chief he assumed command from. The initial chief who had command stated all information was conveyed to the communications center and such, rather than taking command from the initial chief as soon as he did, the higher chief should have potentially completed all his assessments prior to assuming command. This is still an argument with said chief who was hired by a council under the mayor and they would rather politics play a role rather than hearing multiple letters from personnel and companies stating there is a lack of leadership or a lack of faith in his operations so to speak. As far as most communications, all members are requested to provide information to their immediate supervisors rather than tying up the radio in order to basically have their voice heard on the radio. If there is some type of life threatening emergency, that member with a portable is able to get that message out without transferring the information to a supervisor. </p> I think that there should be…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-02-02:1219672:Comment:1206332009-02-02T20:03:12.990ZJim Masonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JimMason
I think that there should be a FF that goes to the rear in most cases. Here's why. Lots of times there is more to do than just size up in the rear. Windows need to vented and sometimes civilains need to be pulled out of upper floor windows. If an officer, that must be at the front of the building to lead the the FF's inside, is in the back he either can;t do these thngs because he needs to get to the front or is delayed to the front because he is perfroming these duties. If there are enough…
I think that there should be a FF that goes to the rear in most cases. Here's why. Lots of times there is more to do than just size up in the rear. Windows need to vented and sometimes civilains need to be pulled out of upper floor windows. If an officer, that must be at the front of the building to lead the the FF's inside, is in the back he either can;t do these thngs because he needs to get to the front or is delayed to the front because he is perfroming these duties. If there are enough companies to send a an entire crew to the rear to look that is better than all of the above. I think the PAR is dependant…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-02-02:1219672:Comment:1206312009-02-02T19:57:25.961ZJim Masonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JimMason
I think the PAR is dependant on the officer having an idea of where his members are. Even if this is a truck company where the crew is split up to inside and outside duties an offcier must have a plab for what needs to be done. For example, since I'm a floating LT I have to do new roll call with a different company every work day. One of the things I go over is what to do if the horns are blown by the IC for evactuation. This includes talk on if how to get out from inside, FF's first then…
I think the PAR is dependant on the officer having an idea of where his members are. Even if this is a truck company where the crew is split up to inside and outside duties an offcier must have a plab for what needs to be done. For example, since I'm a floating LT I have to do new roll call with a different company every work day. One of the things I go over is what to do if the horns are blown by the IC for evactuation. This includes talk on if how to get out from inside, FF's first then myself, even if they are in front of me on the hose line. To me, the officer is first in and last out. I really believe it's the officer's duty to duty to have an idea of how the roof team will get to the roof and how they would get off. Then if I don;t hear from them I know where to look for them. I also bring up that if we get off the roof and out opf the building we need to get to the front of the building to get a head count. It ain't "no thang" special to do this, I just think it's the officer's job for the fire ground We also sound the airhorns an…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-30:1219672:Comment:1201052009-01-30T21:55:12.871ZNick Morganhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/NickMorgan
We also sound the airhorns anytime an evacuation order is given. With our radio system, it's very likely that some companies won't hear the order on the hand-held radios. We have encountered the problem you mentioned Dave, where a crew with a line protecting the upper floor evacuates before the firefighters on the upper floor can make it out. This can cause the scene to become both chaotic and dangerous very quicky. We use a version of the PAR called a "20 minute MARC. (Member Accountability…
We also sound the airhorns anytime an evacuation order is given. With our radio system, it's very likely that some companies won't hear the order on the hand-held radios. We have encountered the problem you mentioned Dave, where a crew with a line protecting the upper floor evacuates before the firefighters on the upper floor can make it out. This can cause the scene to become both chaotic and dangerous very quicky. We use a version of the PAR called a "20 minute MARC. (Member Accountability Roll Call) However, it's not always used consistently. Also, on fire where things aren't going well, which is when we need the MARC the most, is usually when it is overlooked or forgotten about in the midst of all the radio traffic and chaos on scene. Our situation goes to show that just because every riding position on the apparatus has a portable radio assigned, this alone doesn't mean that FG communication is consistently adequate nor efficient. Much training needs to be conducted regarding radio discipline; coordinating on scene communications with Fire Alarm's ongoing dispatch duties; and what should be communicated and to whom it should be directed to.<br />
<br />
As far as the discussion about crews entering the first floor, unknowingly above a working basement fire, Jeff hit the nail on the head! The officer MUST do a thorough 360 around the structure which includes intentionally looking for evidence of a basement fire anytime heavy smoke is visible from the first floor. Our companies have made this mistake many times, thank the Lord no one has been hurt seriously YET, but it's a scary feeling when you are crawling around on a hot and smokey first floor, only to hear over the radio that a working fire has been discovered in the basement. I really believe their is no reason we should ever enter a residential structure without first knowing what floor the fire is on first. And when an officer discovers some critical information about the fire or fire building, he or she should relay it to the IC or Operations officer who should then relay it to each division or group officer if it will affect their operations. We can't know everything, and we certainly can't control all of the variables at a working fire, but there is no reason that we shouldn't control what we can and communicate ANYTHING pertinent as soon as possible. The IC relies on division, group, or company officers to be their "eyes and ears" in other parts of the fire building. Especially the roof, interior, and oftentimes the rear (side C) of the structure. Jim,
In the fire I spoke of,…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-30:1219672:Comment:1198722009-01-30T04:53:02.997ZJeff Schweringhttps://community.fireengineering.com/xn/detail/u_37b96vk1v2kop
Jim,<br />
In the fire I spoke of, I did initially stop the crew from going in the front door, I got lucky, I had a walk-out basement. I had the line stretched to the rear, finished my 360, joined my 2 firefighters, and knocked the main body of the fire down, with about 100 gallons. The second line did go in after the knock and got the minor extension on the first floor. We can make a differenceon our 360 on basements, even if we have to take a basement widow in the process, but, that's a whole…
Jim,<br />
In the fire I spoke of, I did initially stop the crew from going in the front door, I got lucky, I had a walk-out basement. I had the line stretched to the rear, finished my 360, joined my 2 firefighters, and knocked the main body of the fire down, with about 100 gallons. The second line did go in after the knock and got the minor extension on the first floor. We can make a differenceon our 360 on basements, even if we have to take a basement widow in the process, but, that's a whole different thread.<br />
<br />
Jeff We blow the horns almnost eve…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-30:1219672:Comment:1198282009-01-30T02:59:10.308ZJim Masonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JimMason
We blow the horns almnost evey time to get the guys out and here is why; The FF's inside or on top of the building can;t always hear the radio order to get out. But they will almost always hear the horns. Everyone knows to get out when they hear it.<br />
The Pars are another issue. I believe there was just a bad one 2 weeks ago that compormised the operation after the evacuation. I'm not certian of all the details but that's what I heard. Pars are an important part of the survivalbilty of the…
We blow the horns almnost evey time to get the guys out and here is why; The FF's inside or on top of the building can;t always hear the radio order to get out. But they will almost always hear the horns. Everyone knows to get out when they hear it.<br />
The Pars are another issue. I believe there was just a bad one 2 weeks ago that compormised the operation after the evacuation. I'm not certian of all the details but that's what I heard. Pars are an important part of the survivalbilty of the members - that everyone should be accounted for. I also think that it makes the officer think at least a small amount about their responsibilites to the members. I think to be effective, it needs to be in writting and studied for the promotional exams. If it means money in the pocket , then it will be acknowledged by the rank and file.<br />
Why is there resistance to pars? Jim,
I am actually a Captain…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-30:1219672:Comment:1198192009-01-30T02:50:07.724ZMark Langstonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/MarkLangston
Jim,<br />
<br />
I am actually a Captain, but that is neither here nor there. I do agree about your point that we do not specifically go over what needs to be communicated and what doesn't. It is just left in the air. We do have an emergency evacuation SOP but we don't really follow it. I have been on several fires that the IC has ordered everyone out of the building but we have never sounded airhorns or anything like our SOP says to. I guess maybe since they weren't "emergency" but get out to change to…
Jim,<br />
<br />
I am actually a Captain, but that is neither here nor there. I do agree about your point that we do not specifically go over what needs to be communicated and what doesn't. It is just left in the air. We do have an emergency evacuation SOP but we don't really follow it. I have been on several fires that the IC has ordered everyone out of the building but we have never sounded airhorns or anything like our SOP says to. I guess maybe since they weren't "emergency" but get out to change to defensive etc... So here is a question when does an order to evacuate become an emergency evacuation or should you sound horns everytime? We would probably have guys filling work comp claims for hearing damage if we did it all the time:) How good is CFD at doing PAR's ?? That is something else in your SOP's we dont really do<br />
<br />
<cite>Jim Mason said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/commonsensefirefighting/forum/topic/show?id=1219672%3ATopic%3A115674#1219672Comment119816"><div>Mark<br/> Thanks for joining us here at CSF.<br/>
Your story makes the point of FF's saying things that they discover they only they can see. The IC probabaly would have seen the glow and would have eventually gone to see what was happening but you might have saved some injuries and or deaths of the brothers inside the building. Good Job!<br/>
I think we need to teach the younger memebrs of the Fire service what need to be reported to prevent the maydays from occuring in the first place.<br/>
<br/>
Somtimes these things don;t go the right way. I think if we are constantly sizeing up the situation like is described in the literature out there we normally come across some situation factors that only we know about. It then that a single FF can make a difference in the outcome of the operation. Often this comes down to what is decribed in the NIOSH reports as the continous size up that should have been made. I really don;t think that we talk to our FF's and our officers about what should be reported on the scene to the IC.<br/>
Sometimes we need to say to the IC we are getting out or get everyone out, this is that bad a situation.<br/>
Does everybody have an emergency evacuation SOP on their depts?</div>
</blockquote> Mark
Thanks for joining us he…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-30:1219672:Comment:1198162009-01-30T02:33:05.169ZJim Masonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JimMason
Mark<br />
Thanks for joining us here at CSF.<br />
Your story makes the point of FF's saying things that they discover they only they can see. The IC probabaly would have seen the glow and would have eventually gone to see what was happening but you might have saved some injuries and or deaths of the brothers inside the building. Good Job!<br />
I think we need to teach the younger memebrs of the Fire service what need to be reported to prevent the maydays from occuring in the first place.<br />
<br />
Somtimes these…
Mark<br />
Thanks for joining us here at CSF.<br />
Your story makes the point of FF's saying things that they discover they only they can see. The IC probabaly would have seen the glow and would have eventually gone to see what was happening but you might have saved some injuries and or deaths of the brothers inside the building. Good Job!<br />
I think we need to teach the younger memebrs of the Fire service what need to be reported to prevent the maydays from occuring in the first place.<br />
<br />
Somtimes these things don;t go the right way. I think if we are constantly sizeing up the situation like is described in the literature out there we normally come across some situation factors that only we know about. It then that a single FF can make a difference in the outcome of the operation. Often this comes down to what is decribed in the NIOSH reports as the continous size up that should have been made. I really don;t think that we talk to our FF's and our officers about what should be reported on the scene to the IC.<br />
Sometimes we need to say to the IC we are getting out or get everyone out, this is that bad a situation.<br />
Does everybody have an emergency evacuation SOP on their depts? Jeff
If you find the fire are…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-30:1219672:Comment:1198142009-01-30T02:23:44.779ZJim Masonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JimMason
Jeff<br />
If you find the fire are you able to and have you stopped the engine from going in the front door over a basement fire in a Lt Wt frame? This is one of the worst case senarios on these constrcution types. Guys are falling into these fires quite frequently. 2 FF's dead in Ohio of just last April 09.<br />
<br />
<cite>Jeff Schwering said:…</cite>
Jeff<br />
If you find the fire are you able to and have you stopped the engine from going in the front door over a basement fire in a Lt Wt frame? This is one of the worst case senarios on these constrcution types. Guys are falling into these fires quite frequently. 2 FF's dead in Ohio of just last April 09.<br />
<br />
<cite>Jeff Schwering said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/group/commonsensefirefighting/forum/topic/show?id=1219672%3ATopic%3A115674#1219672Comment119776"><div>Jim<br/>We should be able to determine on our 360, if we have involvement in the basement. A 360 is not just walking around the building, it's looking up and down the structure, to make an accurate size-up. I've found the main body of fire in the basement before, can be easy to see glowing bright in the widows. Communications need to be made, whenever fire is confirmed in a basement.<br/>Jeff</div>
</blockquote> Hey I am new here but this is…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-30:1219672:Comment:1198012009-01-30T01:54:00.162ZMark Langstonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/MarkLangston
Hey I am new here but this is an important topic. IT seems alot of time you have people who love to hear themselves on the radio who clog everything up when you have something important to say but I will try to address your questions.<br />
What should we say on the radio? As little as possible (only important traffic needs to be on the radio)<br />
What should we report to command? We need to report any and all information that he would need to make decisions.<br />
ie. Completion of assignments, any…
Hey I am new here but this is an important topic. IT seems alot of time you have people who love to hear themselves on the radio who clog everything up when you have something important to say but I will try to address your questions.<br />
What should we say on the radio? As little as possible (only important traffic needs to be on the radio)<br />
What should we report to command? We need to report any and all information that he would need to make decisions.<br />
ie. Completion of assignments, any information that would change the current tactics<br />
Do ff working alone have the right to report? Yes, only experienced ff's should be working alone so they should know what needs to be reported and what doesn't.<br />
<br />
For example, a week ago we had a fire it was going good on the first floor fire out all the windows on first floor. There was a line in the front. We were stretching a line around back. And the whole back of the house was lit up with fire blowing out of the attic and second floor. I notified the IC about this and he came around (our IC's aren't hidden away in a car down the block) and saw what I saw and pulled everyone out and we went defensive. I think eventually from the front the IC would have eventually made the decision to back out, but that decision came quicker based on information transmitted from an area he couldn't see.