The Only Difference - Fire Engineering Training Community2024-03-29T15:39:47Zhttps://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?commentId=1219672%3AComment%3A100163&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A90219&feed=yes&xn_auth=noRob and Shawn. I totally agre…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-19:1219672:Comment:1155402009-01-19T04:41:50.129ZJoe McClellandhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JoeMcClelland
Rob and Shawn. I totally agree with both of you. I will go one further, a lot of career people are very arogant and ignorant towards vollies. I do not like that way of thinking. We all bleed the same and die the same. The number of fatals for career against vollies is also something to look at, carrer guys are dying in fire and vollies are dying in tanker rollovers and responding to calls in their own cars. That is something to look at as well. Why is a 16 year old driving a 3000 gallon tanker?…
Rob and Shawn. I totally agree with both of you. I will go one further, a lot of career people are very arogant and ignorant towards vollies. I do not like that way of thinking. We all bleed the same and die the same. The number of fatals for career against vollies is also something to look at, carrer guys are dying in fire and vollies are dying in tanker rollovers and responding to calls in their own cars. That is something to look at as well. Why is a 16 year old driving a 3000 gallon tanker? I agree that maybe the vollie dept does not have enough manpower and needs someone to drive the rig, but why a kid? I have 18 years on the job and have never driven a 3000 gallon tanker. Not sure I want to.<br />
<br />
And Rob, I agree with you about there being some very busy vollie jobs out there. My friend Eric just got off probation at the Kentland fire department in Maryland and he loves it. He is a live-in.<br />
<br />
This battle will rage for the rest of time. Lets just keep it friendly.<br />
Joe oh boy a heated topic for yea…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-19:1219672:Comment:1155342009-01-19T04:00:36.849ZShawn Tibbittshttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/shawntibbitts
oh boy a heated topic for years.... I come from bolth diciplines so please do not jump down my throat. I have points from bolth sides but i will end saying 9 out of 10 paid depts are better than volunteer. but we will get to why I think that so calm down. When I was a volunteer 12 years or so, I will say they had more pride and respect for the profession than I have seen in a paid dept. The dedication that I witnessed was fantastic and the want to truelly be better was mind blowing, I have…
oh boy a heated topic for years.... I come from bolth diciplines so please do not jump down my throat. I have points from bolth sides but i will end saying 9 out of 10 paid depts are better than volunteer. but we will get to why I think that so calm down. When I was a volunteer 12 years or so, I will say they had more pride and respect for the profession than I have seen in a paid dept. The dedication that I witnessed was fantastic and the want to truelly be better was mind blowing, I have nothing but respect for the world of volunteer fire depts. That being said when it all boils down to what really matters in the scope of things, paid depts are better. Reason being its a numbers thing, most of the vol depts around here( meaning where I live) have at best half the training that rookies coming on do but thats besides the point and can easily change. The numbers thing... well I will explain, the paid depts just have more experience plain and simple when you have 6 fires a week, at one dept and 6 fires a year someplace else, who's gona be more proficient and better at it? Its the same thing where ever you look I know I couldnt build kitchen cabinets as good or as quick as somebody that does it everyday. Its just the way it works. Around my town we have a big problem with vol depts and that is the lack their is of people dedicated that want to help. I blame that on the new generation, it seams as if people just dont care the way they used to. I do have alot of respect for vol depts, people do not realize the training you do on your time the calls you answer on your time the life you risk for free.... I have respect so please dont over analyze anything I said. My sole argument again is the numbers thing and thats the only diference, that and your pride is mind blowing. Keep up the good work I do apreciate you. My only advise is dont get to caught up in the politics of things, and train...train and then train some more . we are all professionals and we are all brothers and sisters no matter what. Be the best you can be. Joe,
Well put brother! The ex…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-19:1219672:Comment:1155172009-01-19T03:02:51.411ZRob Cannonhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/firerescue247
Joe,<br />
Well put brother! The exception to the rule for vollies is on the east coast. It's not uncommon to find vollie depts. especially along from VA through PA that run better than 2,500 calls all volunteer. It's not uncommon to find these depts. in a big city atmosphere like Prince Georges County, MD.<br />
<br />
Yes Pride is still a factor... it takes A LOT of Pride to run over 2,500 calls!<br />
<br />
It's weird... in the chicagoland area vollies are the minority, but in many of the east coast states PAID…
Joe,<br />
Well put brother! The exception to the rule for vollies is on the east coast. It's not uncommon to find vollie depts. especially along from VA through PA that run better than 2,500 calls all volunteer. It's not uncommon to find these depts. in a big city atmosphere like Prince Georges County, MD.<br />
<br />
Yes Pride is still a factor... it takes A LOT of Pride to run over 2,500 calls!<br />
<br />
It's weird... in the chicagoland area vollies are the minority, but in many of the east coast states PAID personnel are the minority. I love riding out in the eastern states... talk about BROTHERHOOD!!! They always put me up in the firehouse... of course lack of sleep comes along with having my hotel be a firehouse, but hey it's FREE! lol<br />
<br />
<cite>Joe McClelland said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://community.fireengineering.com/forum/topic/show?page=3&commentId=1219672%3AComment%3A115514&id=1219672%3ATopic%3A90219&x=1#1219672Comment115514"><div>Kinda late on this one, but...<br/> There is a difference. Now pride, dedication may all be the same, but volume of calls and real life experience are where the line is drawn. I have a vollie town by me, that have officers that can't make calls or drills due to their real job. Then they make the rig after 6 months of no training and expect to be fresh and ready, not going to happen! Career firefighters are going on pin-ins, house fires, full-arrests a lot more than the vollies. Again, that is where the line ends. You miss a rig for 3-6 months, are you up to date on reading smoke, fire behavior, moving line inside a structure? Again, the pride and dedication may be there, but the experience may not. My station went to a 2-11 this morning, My guys were making a hallway with the line on the second floor of a sfd. One member of a vollie job was with them, 3rd on the line. All made the hall except the 4 man, he was humping hose, a door gave way and the fire in the room flashed down the hall. Now experience told my 2 guys, in front of the vollie, that the fire would burn off the un-burned particles of combustion in the hall, then recied back into the fire room, they hunkered down, hit the ceiling with the line quick, next thing the fire was gone and they made the room and hit the fire. The vollie screamed and tried to stand up. The 4 man had come up stairs and held him down. Outside the vollie said he thought he was going to die in a flashover. More experience would have told him otherwise. That is all I am saying. No slams against vollies at all. I have the utmost respect respect for those that do the job for free or close to it. But someone almost died this morning, or got real crispy, from a lack of knowledge of fire beh and interior experience. But you better be dam sure he had a 'no fear'. 'follow me', 'rehab is for quitters' stickers on his helmet.
Please don't come at me with mad replies taht I am a career guy that hates vollies. Read my bio, I teach for one of the largest Fire Training Institutes in the world. I see tons of vollies come through for live fire training. They tell me themselves that they have a huge lack of real experience. I have some people say they have not been in a fire in 2-3 years. There is a serious lack of experience there.<br />
<br />
FYI... you taught me some valuable knowledge during Coordinate FG several years back!<br />
<br />
All be safe and KTF.</div>
</blockquote> Kinda late on this one, but..…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2009-01-19:1219672:Comment:1155142009-01-19T02:58:16.904ZJoe McClellandhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JoeMcClelland
Kinda late on this one, but...<br />
There is a difference. Now pride, dedication may all be the same, but volume of calls and real life experience are where the line is drawn. I have a vollie town by me, that have officers that can't make calls or drills due to their real job. Then they make the rig after 6 months of no training and expect to be fresh and ready, not going to happen! Career firefighters are going on pin-ins, house fires, full-arrests a lot more than the vollies. Again, that is where…
Kinda late on this one, but...<br />
There is a difference. Now pride, dedication may all be the same, but volume of calls and real life experience are where the line is drawn. I have a vollie town by me, that have officers that can't make calls or drills due to their real job. Then they make the rig after 6 months of no training and expect to be fresh and ready, not going to happen! Career firefighters are going on pin-ins, house fires, full-arrests a lot more than the vollies. Again, that is where the line ends. You miss a rig for 3-6 months, are you up to date on reading smoke, fire behavior, moving line inside a structure? Again, the pride and dedication may be there, but the experience may not. My station went to a 2-11 this morning, My guys were making a hallway with the line on the second floor of a sfd. One member of a vollie job was with them, 3rd on the line. All made the hall except the 4 man, he was humping hose, a door gave way and the fire in the room flashed down the hall. Now experience told my 2 guys, in front of the vollie, that the fire would burn off the un-burned particles of combustion in the hall, then recied back into the fire room, they hunkered down, hit the ceiling with the line quick, next thing the fire was gone and they made the room and hit the fire. The vollie screamed and tried to stand up. The 4 man had come up stairs and held him down. Outside the vollie said he thought he was going to die in a flashover. More experience would have told him otherwise.<br />
<br />
That is all I am saying. No slams against vollies at all. I have the utmost respect respect for those that do the job for free or close to it. But someone almost died this morning, or got real crispy, from a lack of knowledge of fire beh and interior experience. But you better be dam sure he had a 'no fear'. 'follow me', 'rehab is for quitters' stickers on his helmet.<br />
<br />
Please don't come at me with mad replies taht I am a career guy that hates vollies. Read my bio, I teach for one of the largest Fire Training Institutes in the world. I see tons of vollies come through for live fire training. They tell me themselves that they have a huge lack of real experience. I have some people say they have not been in a fire in 2-3 years. There is a serious lack of experience there.<br />
<br />
All be safe and KTF. I'm a Firefighter in a large…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-27:1219672:Comment:1001632008-11-27T16:50:47.641ZTrey Nelmshttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/TreyNelms
I'm a Firefighter in a large career department but also volunteer where I live serving as a Fire Captain and the Training Officer. We have the good and bad on both sides of the coin.<br />
First, my career department. We make 100,000 calls a year (Fire, EMS, Haz-Mat, Rescue). Our training program is a joke. You receive your FF I and II while at the academy and that's it. Everything else you learn is from a senior man or through hard knocks. Once you receive your FF I or II cert in Tennessee, it's…
I'm a Firefighter in a large career department but also volunteer where I live serving as a Fire Captain and the Training Officer. We have the good and bad on both sides of the coin.<br />
First, my career department. We make 100,000 calls a year (Fire, EMS, Haz-Mat, Rescue). Our training program is a joke. You receive your FF I and II while at the academy and that's it. Everything else you learn is from a senior man or through hard knocks. Once you receive your FF I or II cert in Tennessee, it's yours for life. No recerts, no live burn requirements, no minimal training hours......piss poor. Many of the people on my career department are not firemen, they are just employees that are there for the paycheck, days off, and the benefits. There are pockets of pride and professionalism scattered throughout the city, but we we have a long way to go as a whole.<br />
My Volunteer gig is rare for the area I'm in as well. We have a very progressive Chief who is an advocate for training, equipment, FF safety, etc. Our minimum training standard far exceeds my career departments. We have several monthly training opportunities, provide community services during the week (address signs, home inspections, free smoke detector installs, etc., while responding to an average of 4-5 calls per day (not bad for volunteer). The bad part is we are the exception, not the rule. The majority of Volunteer organizations in our area have little to no equipment, substandard training if any at all, poor leadership, and no desire to change any of it. It is a "club" for people to get away from life as they know it. The thing most of them have is "good intentions" but when pressed into action, it would have been better if they did not come at all. Not all Volunteer organizations in the area are like this, but it is a high percentage.<br />
If the member is a well trained, job competent volunteer....I'll take them 8 days a week. They are usually involved for reasons other than personal gain. They participate because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to.<br />
I work with great firemen on both sides (career and volunteer), and they are good at what they do. There are shortfalls in both sectors that must be addressed. I feel blessed that I can do what I love for a career, but I also love being a volunteer in a community that can't afford to pay salaries for our service. It is unfortunate that this d…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-22:1219672:Comment:985282008-11-22T06:55:49.124ZMichael Bricault (ret)https://community.fireengineering.com/profile/FfrMichaelBricault
It is unfortunate that this discussion keeps coming up. The sad part is the egos that enter in to the discussion clouding a persons view and obscuring their objectivity. I too was a volunteer firefighter when I started out in the fire service and these observations are not a knock against volunteers but rather just a statement of how things are.<br />
The inescapable fact of the matter is that no matter how much either side says, there are in fact differences. And what is wrong with differences. The…
It is unfortunate that this discussion keeps coming up. The sad part is the egos that enter in to the discussion clouding a persons view and obscuring their objectivity. I too was a volunteer firefighter when I started out in the fire service and these observations are not a knock against volunteers but rather just a statement of how things are.<br />
The inescapable fact of the matter is that no matter how much either side says, there are in fact differences. And what is wrong with differences. The things that make us different are not good or bad... they just are.<br />
Differences in training and experience are dramatic. And no matter how much a volunteer department trains, they still cannot equal the amount of training that career firefighters go through. After all, they are doing it FULL TIME whereas volunteers are engaging in the fire service part time AT MOST.<br />
It seems that most of the people that think there are no differences are the volunteers that have never had the opportunity to experience the level of training and experience that the career side experience. And yes, I too volunteered and thought I had the same training and experience to make me just as proficient UNTIL I was hired as a career firefighter and completed over 600 hours of basic training. Then I realized just how much information and hands on training I was missing. I also understood just how much more there was to learn.<br />
Attending classes and schools is a great experience but unfortunately still falls short. The reality is many of these classes are covered in the basic training phase of career firefighters.<br />
Can we learn from each other? Sure. Do volunteers do good work? Absolutely. Is there a difference between career and volunteer in the level and proficiency of service delivery? Absolutely. But its ok. Things are what they are.<br />
If you volunteer somewhere thats great. Giving back to ones community is a good thing that demonstrates true civic mindedness. If you want to receive the higher level of training, experience and expertise within the fire service then try to get hired on to the paid side so that you can do the job full time and focus all of your time and attention to one thing.<br />
Does it matter once we are on the fire ground wether we are career or volunteer? Yes it does because we are going to perceive and react differently to the same situations. We have a common goal yes, but our training, experience and ability will often be very different in achieving that end.<br />
I believe that all firefighters should be compensated for their efforts. I also believe that all firefighters should have the same level of training. But, the reality is that until we all do this as a full time vocation then there will always be those that have more training and experience since they are devoting all of their time to one job...their profession. Here are my feelings on this:…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-11:1219672:Comment:940482008-11-11T01:55:40.455ZJoe Heimhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/JoeHeim
Here are my feelings on this:<br />
<br />
1. It should not be an issue, we can all learn from each other paid or volunteer, that is what this job is all about, helping not only the communities we protect but also each other.<br />
<br />
2. When I am on a job I don't care if the person next to me is paid or not, the fire does not care nor do the citizens we are protecting care so why should we, we all have a common goal and that is to go home to our families the same way we left them.<br />
<br />
Stay Safe and remember we all…
Here are my feelings on this:<br />
<br />
1. It should not be an issue, we can all learn from each other paid or volunteer, that is what this job is all about, helping not only the communities we protect but also each other.<br />
<br />
2. When I am on a job I don't care if the person next to me is paid or not, the fire does not care nor do the citizens we are protecting care so why should we, we all have a common goal and that is to go home to our families the same way we left them.<br />
<br />
Stay Safe and remember we all have a common goal!! Hi Brenda. The difference, in…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-08:1219672:Comment:935652008-11-08T19:05:46.679ZMichael Bricault (ret)https://community.fireengineering.com/profile/FfrMichaelBricault
Hi Brenda. The difference, in fact, between paid/career firefighters and volunteers is much more significant than one person receiving compensation.<br />
In most instances the disparity in training is dramatic. The basic training phase alone for most career departments is on the order of 600 up to 800 hours which equates to four to six straight months of training; five days a week, eight hours a day. In reality, most volunteer firefighters do not participate in that much actual training in a years…
Hi Brenda. The difference, in fact, between paid/career firefighters and volunteers is much more significant than one person receiving compensation.<br />
In most instances the disparity in training is dramatic. The basic training phase alone for most career departments is on the order of 600 up to 800 hours which equates to four to six straight months of training; five days a week, eight hours a day. In reality, most volunteer firefighters do not participate in that much actual training in a years time. This is not a knock against volunteers but rather a statement of fact. Our basic training phase in the City of Albuquerque is 21 week, nine hours a day; day in day out; rain, shine, snow... This includes classroom lecture, the drill field evolutions, physical fitness training each morning, live burns and much much more. Firefighters, much like basic training in the military service learn discipline, honor, pride and tradition. It is the equivalent of a college degree program in a hyper-condensed format.<br />
What's more, because the career firefighter is doing the job all the time they usually amass much more experience and have the opportunity to participate in training much more regularly.<br />
Please notice though, at no time yet have I used the term professional. I am a firm believer that professionalism denotes a level of service delivery. Excellent and safe service to our constituents, to other firefighters and for ourselves. Being aggressive is not the hallmark of a true firefighter. Safe, effective and efficient professional service is.<br />
All firefighters, career or volunteer, must be capable of professional firefighting or they need to get out of the fire service. Firefighting is not a hobby or pass time. Mistakes can result in serious injury or death and the calling of a firefighter must not be engaged in lightly.<br />
Stay safe my sentiment exactly Mike. We…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-08:1219672:Comment:935622008-11-08T19:01:29.679ZBarry Aptthttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/BarryAptt
my sentiment exactly Mike. Well stated.
my sentiment exactly Mike. Well stated. Oh Good Goobly Goo! Why does…tag:community.fireengineering.com,2008-11-08:1219672:Comment:935592008-11-08T18:54:15.899ZMike Walkerhttps://community.fireengineering.com/profile/MikeWalker
Oh Good Goobly Goo! Why does this topic come up so often? Hell yes there is a difference, and what is wrong with that! The volunteers do not have near enough worker's comp insurance, they dont' get nearly the support they deserve from the state. They have to have a very understandable boss from their paid work; There is often times only a handful of very faithful people who will make the sacrifices to keep the department operating properly. The volleys are amazing people that do the best they…
Oh Good Goobly Goo! Why does this topic come up so often? Hell yes there is a difference, and what is wrong with that! The volunteers do not have near enough worker's comp insurance, they dont' get nearly the support they deserve from the state. They have to have a very understandable boss from their paid work; There is often times only a handful of very faithful people who will make the sacrifices to keep the department operating properly. The volleys are amazing people that do the best they can with what they have, which too many times, isn't nearly enough.<br />
<br />
As far as response levels, we all know it depends on the department. Some departments are very well trained, staffed and equipped and they act/respond accordingly. Others are a group a civic minded persons who are willing help their town but due to various reasons do not have the opportunity to train as much or have ample equipment.<br />
<br />
I do honestly have a problem with person's who are way too young (under 18) or too old (depends on the person) responding to calls that are way way way above their level of capability. Every time I hear about an 80 year old man dieing of a heart attack on a grass fire it breaks my heart. Everytime I read about a 17 year old kid who flips his/her truck while responding to a fire, it breaks my heart. But who am I judge why municipalities allow these people to counted amoungst the fire department?<br />
<br />
Here's a suggestion:Let's keep this site about training.... just a thought