New video senario for CSF

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Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault (ret) on February 12, 2009 at 11:00pm

-The easy answer is, "Strike a second alarm upon arrival".
-It is hard to tell from the video but this looks like a typical taxpayer; a single story multiple commercial occupancy and it should be handled accordingly. Strike a second alarm, have the engines lay in LDH supply and get to work with master streams.
-The thing to remember is that strip malls tend to be constructed, in the US anyway, as disposable structures. With advanced fire conditions as see in the video the IC must plan for early structural failure.
-As the first arriving ladder company yes the structure should be laddered but more importantly forcible entry concerns are going to be huge. Members will be taking multiple doors on the front and the back of all of the occupancies. Great job for the Rabbit Tool.
-Search parameters will be very narrow as the Rescue Profile should be Low, again, this is difficult to assess from the video. The occupancy type must be determined. Is this a grocery store that is closed or an all night grocery? Is it a furniture store with a wide open floor plan or a dirty book/peep show kind of place that is subdivided and subdivided and subdivided.
-I know what you're all thinking too. LOL. But, last week we had a fire in a 24 hour peep show joint and it was a nightmare. Lots of cubicles with very limited access, extremely poor ventilation (even after opening the roof) and little to no on scene fire notification within the business to occupants. There was also no appropriate accounting for patrons by the staff. You know, "See no evil" that sort of thing. One FF injury though not serious. These places are set up to be discreet and that creates problems for the FD.
-One lesson learned was how deceiving the occupancy actually was from the street. Judging from the exterior the companies had no way of telling the vastness and the incredible subdividing that had taken place. A veritable rabbit warren of rooms and narrow hallways. Actually it was a nasty place to have a fire.... on many, many levels.
-BUT... Enough on that.
-The point is, the occupancy type will start to create a Rescue Profile for arriving companies based on the occupant load. Personnel must be familiar with the occupancies within their response area.... we've all heard that. But who wants to do a pre fire plan on a porn joint or an alternate lifestyle club? Yeah, yeah I know; let's remember we are professionals here. Worse still, how would that look to the public? Yet, we are creating an ultra dangerous situation by avoiding these places.
-We have two more of these types of occupancies in my response area and the structures have been abandoned. We did a walk through with the BC and it was shocking to see the subdivision violations and blatant fire code violations the occupants got away with because the Fire Marshal wouldn't do an inspection.
-We all heard about subdividing by tenants contributing to the FF deaths in the Bronx and the firemen being forced to jump. Now imagine being in a commercial occupancy, a bar or small theater that is broken up into rooms 15x15 or smaller.
-These occupancies; porn places, peep shows, rave clubs, the new super hip night club, the subdividing that takes place will create difficult conditions at best and easily contribute to delayed fire detection, delayed or no on sight notification to patrons, impossible search conditions, extraordinarily difficult ventilation conditions and early collapse of the structure.
-The Fire Marshal's Office, Fire Prevention Bureau, what ever you call him, needs to get out there and inspect these places before they are discovered at 3 AM with heavy fire showing. An example is The Station Night Club in RI.
-The fire in the video will require at least one extra alarm to handle safely, aggressive forcible entry and aggressive ventilation not to mention early use of master streams. Smaller lines can always be used for mop up.
-Sorry for getting off track there but fires in strip malls are a routine fire that very often create vapor lock thinking amongst the troops especially when they are thrown a curve ball like those unusual but "common" occupancies.
KTF

Permalink Reply by Adam on February 13, 2009 at 12:02am

Agreed on most parts. Sort of hard to tell the whole situation with the video, but it looks as if we have some sort of attic involvement, assuming a common attic space would have me looking to see how far on the bravo and delta sides we have fire, and possible writing one side off to save the rest? I have very little (nil) experince fighting this type of fire so far in my short carrer, but I think a preconnected monitor might be appropriate to knock down what visible fire we have venting out the front on arrival. Searching for entry on the Delta Side might be an option to try and push the fire back out the front, however these can be clustered messes, and as Michael said, these buildings (in our area as well) are lightweight "disposable" stuctures and the biggest problem could be rapid truss failure. I guess may main initial concerns would be water supply, gaining entry, and trying to confine the fire using big water. Feel free to pick the rookies post apart, I'm here to learn!!

Permalink Reply by Mark Langston on February 13, 2009 at 12:07am

Just like was said you want to make it an extra alarm. Then set up to use 2 1/2 and master streams. I would also assume command and give a size-up for incoming units. I would also be concerned about placing my apparatus too close to the building and creating a $350,000+ fire exposure. But big fire, big water. It is an advanced fire at night with most likely a steel truss roof. With the amount of fire I would be extremely hesitant to commit interior personnel.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 13, 2009 at 4:32pm

Good points!!
I think that we ned to expect bar joist truss and an early colppase of the building. This brings up the search and rescue aspect of the fire. Not many of these buildings will have the need for search except as Brick brought up, a place where privacy is assured. We have a large alternative lifestyle community here and that would be of concern. (I have a good story for the FDIC get together , remind me!)
Other wise I would think that most people that could run out would be out due to alarms sounding. We usually will have the display windows taken out for the primary venting. Having a truck set a ladder up to look at the roof, but not get on, might give us another perspective on location and extent. For example, if there was a sagging of the roof in one portion of the buidling or another it might tel us where the seat is. Defintely do not go on this roof to cut a h*** unless the fire is absolutely contents only. What about the rear of the building? Any thoughts there?

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on February 14, 2009 at 2:35pm

Jim,
By looking at the video, at least one additional alarm, depending on the area you work in. Lay LDH on the way in and use masterstreams or big lines. With these types of structures, collapse will happen, with that amount of fire showing. You do need to complete a 360 to get a handle on the % of involvement from the outside. My little dept has srtip malls, it's good to know if one store is off, or is it the whole thing. Again, we're back to preplanning are first due. As the first officer at the scene, I should know this structure, my enemy, and be able to fight it accordingly.

Permalink Reply by Chad Snyder on February 14, 2009 at 11:38pm

Micheal hit great points! A couple to add...
Jim you asked about the rear of the structure, I would send my 1st due truck to the rear for forcible entry and check for extension. My guess is there will be some type of roll-up doors and man doors to both the fire building and exposures. Doing this will allow me to place additional companies where they can best protect the exposures and confine the fire.
I like the idea of getting eyes on the roof as well, i would have them position the truck on the exposure side and laddering (D1 or D2) assuming its a strip mall. This would allow for ladder pipe ops and keep the truck cool as well.
As the first arriving senior officer I would establish command, and set up a staging area. I realize that would slow things down a little, but this would also allow the proper positioning of trucks and engines instead of everyone piling up at the entrance.

Chad

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on February 15, 2009 at 3:57pm

Like many others have said this looks like a newer taxpayer which you would figure is lightweight bar joist. With the amount of fire venting out the door on arrival you can expect that there is a ton of fire inside. I would make sure to take command and request a second alarm before getting off of the rig. Second, I need to make sure that I have no crews working at anytime under the overhang around the building.

Just after ordering the second I would have made sure that everyone on scene knows that this is going to be a defensive fire and all ground streams need to be setup outside of the collapse zone of that overhang. Getting an aerial view is always a plus and getting more than one view from above is better. There is no need to put anyone on this roof as it will probably be self venting within a few minutes anyways. Getting the best possible positioning for your rigs will help you out in the long run on a building like this.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 16, 2009 at 9:46am

Guys
Where and how many, what type hose lines would you order to be placed as the first due officer? The chief id delayed. How about further orders after the initial set up, like how would you contain the fire to the unit of origin?

Chris Piepenburg said:

Like many others have said this looks like a newer taxpayer which you would figure is lightweight bar joist. With the amount of fire venting out the door on arrival you can expect that there is a ton of fire inside. I would make sure to take command and request a second alarm before getting off of the rig. Second, I need to make sure that I have no crews working at anytime under the overhang around the building.

Just after ordering the second I would have made sure that everyone on scene knows that this is going to be a defensive fire and all ground streams need to be setup outside of the collapse zone of that overhang. Getting an aerial view is always a plus and getting more than one view from above is better. There is no need to put anyone on this roof as it will probably be self venting within a few minutes anyways. Getting the best possible positioning for your rigs will help you out in the long run on a building like this.

Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on February 19, 2009 at 11:25pm

For me I would put a line right where the fire is exiting on arrival. I would probably start out with a 2 1/2 ground line and see how much we can get from there. It looks like this place is a single unit all to itself with office/showroom in the front and probably storage in the back. I would definitely check out the back side to see if there are any further doors that can be opened up and a stream shot through. I think getting a couple lines flowing on this thing to get it knocked down and see what you actually have burning is the way to go. Is this a contents fire or is the building really going? My guess right off hand would be a rippin contents fire very soon to be followed by the building.

Permalink Reply by Jim Mason on February 21, 2009 at 3:19pm

Yeah Chris
I would put the line right into the closest opening because I'm not going to worry too much about persons being trapped inside like a residence would have. BUT that is only if there was not a reason to think there was someone inside. Just like Brick mentioned , of a peep show type place, if there wasn't a good head count we should expect to search. That might also make adjusting the location of the first hose line stretch also.
As always the hose line needs to go between the fire and the civilians for their ( and our protection). Can this always be done? I don;t know if it's possible. What are the second and third ways into the building? Will all the doors lead us to a do-able hose stretch to the seat of the fire? Again, maybe? If we know the building it could,. If not, it may take going in the front door and pushing the fire onto anyone behind the fire.
What if we arrive to a place of assembly and we find peolpe stacked up at the door like in the Station Fire, Rhode Island?
What's the first and best application of water then?

Permalink Reply by Matt Erdman on February 22, 2009 at 11:43am

First things first, I know only a few German phrases -- most are profanities -- so I's have a hard time telling the troops what I wanted.

First thing I'm thinking is, "What is my rescue profile for the occupancy?" Commerical building late at night, no cars in the parking lot, I'm not going to get too excited about a rescue potential. First-in officer has to do a 360 which shouldn't be a big deal in this case given the small size of the building. While I'm doing my size-up, the crew is deploying a 2 1/2 with the intent of knocking down as much visible fire as possible in A/B. I assume the occupancy has a metal deck roof/metal truss, which given the fire conditions, we suspect will fail sooner rather than later. Early on, I'd advise the incoming BC we're going defensive and request an additional alarm. If this had an overhang along the A side common with strip mall-like structures, stay well from underneath it. I'd have second due secure a water supply if first-in couldn't easily hand-jack one from a nearby source. First due truck set up for an elevated master stream and position on the A/D corner. What do I see on the Bravo and Charlie, and what are my exposures? Heavy fire involving nearly half of the building on A/B and dark smoke pushing from the eves on A/D tells me this building is well on its way to becoming a parking lot. I'd let the BC worry about position of additional apparatus as they arrival onscene.