Firefighter identification on the fireground

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Permalink Reply by Christopher Lince on May 16, 2008 at 9:33pm

Keith,
In our department only the Bat Chiefs, Lt's and Drivers have radios. The Bat Chiefs are refered to as 201, 202, 203. The Lt's are refered to as the apparatus number i.e. engine 1, engine 2. The drivers are refered to as engine 1 operator, engine 2 operator.

This plays right into a MAJOR problem I have with radio communications in our department, the firefighters are not allowed to carry radios. One of the reasons we have been given is that they do not know what to call them on the radio. I think that everyone should have a radio so that they are able to call a mayday if need be.

So I pose the queestion, is everyone supposed to carry a radio and does anyone know af any supporting documentation. Like a NFPA or IAFC or anyother source to help me with this issue.

Thanks,

Chris

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Permalink Reply by Bryce Tracy on May 17, 2008 at 8:02pm

Hey Keith,

My dept radio ID is St. Ignace #5. When we are alone (no mutal aid) we simply say our numbers. (3 from 5, etc.) But when we have mutual aid we insert our geographic ID (St. Ignace) plus we start the Team #1, Division, Sector, Water Supply, etc. naming. We also will go to the formal ICS namings in if there is an escliated need.

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Permalink Reply by Shane Eaton on May 17, 2008 at 9:43pm

Look in NFPA 1500, I believe there is something in it on radios. I teach that everyone who enters a structure should have a radio for mayday situations. Also look in NFPA 1710. I agree with you that every firefighter that enters a structure should have a radio. Most of our members carry a radio in, and every officer has one due to that an officer goes in with their crew. Keep trying, change is hard for the old guard that is used to their way. Their experience is undeniable, but they have to accept change or get rolled over by it.

Shane Eaton

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Permalink Reply by Harold Mugie on June 26, 2008 at 10:32am

Hi Guys,
In The Netherlands we have a multy-tier approach. Each vehicle has its own call-sign and in the communication between vehicle and dispatch this number is used. Within the group of that vehicle each individual has his own portable radio to talkto his officer. The officer has two radios, one for communication with dispatch and one for his team. With a small incident we would have a truck/pump and one special vehicle like an aerial ladder or a raised platform, and the vehicles (usually the officer in command would use the vehicle number). When it comes to a bigger incident e.g. 2 pumps and some special vehicles and extra officer is send to the scene. Because this officer doesn't know which numbers are on the designated trucks, the trucks are renumberd by 110, 120 130 etc. The new officer will be 100. This new officer also has two radios,one to talk to the officers 110, 120 etc and one to talk witch dispatch or a senior officer. These senior officers would be named Aplha, Bravo, Charlie and so on.
Because we use a digital radiosystem we have enough "radiochannels". Commanding officers always have two radios; one to cummunicate with your team and a second one to communicate with your leader and your peers who are on the same command level. Because of the maximum span of 4 people in your command (senior to 4 juniors, each junior to a maximum of 4 vehicles, each vehicle maximum of 4 firefighters and one driver) our commanding officers know who does what and where they are doing it.
Greetz
Harold

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Permalink Reply by Robert Rhoades on July 15, 2008 at 9:30am

In the department I retired from, every person carries a portable radio. They are idenified by their last name, numbers are one more thing to remember and we always felt we didn't need that. As for knowing where people are, the incident commander's job is to know where people are. Engines are identified as 1,2,3, etc. The crew takes on the name of the apparatus. The accountability system allows the IC to know who is on the scene and the A,B,C,D and interior designations allow the IC to be in constant contact. With each person with a portable, it allows the IC and sector chiefs to know instantly of changing conditions. I read some of these posts and I can't believe how something as simple as designations can be made so hard. When the technology allows it, the technology should be used. Case in point, Columbus, Ohio has an 800 Mhz system. There are 7 battallions in Columbus. Each Battalion Chief has what is referred to as a fireground talkgroup. A structural fire in downtown Columbus gets 2 engines, 1 ladder, 1 rescue, 1 medic and 1 battalion chief. They are told to respond on Battallion 1 Fire ground. The Bat Chief also has at their disposal Bat. Tac Talkgroups. All of the other Franklin County Departmetns work in the same manner. The numbering system was a 4 or 5 county system in its inception. Consequently multiple companies from multiple departmetns can be working on the same fireground with no problem identifying any of them. A Columbus Chief may have a Whitehall engine and he knows it's E-151. In like manner the Whitehall Chief may have two Columbus Companies working his fire, he knows that it's E-23 and L-23. In borderline areas, battallion chiefs may have as many as 3 or four departments woring the fire as they decided long ago that all incidents would be handled the same no matter where they occured. So everyone gets two engines and a ladder, no matter where they come from. In both of the cases I mentioned, a PAR is taken every twenty minutes giving the IC and all company officers immediate accounting for all of their people. That's another very good reason for everyone to have a radio, however the PAR must be visual.

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Permalink Reply by Bruce Green on July 16, 2008 at 11:05am

My department utilizes apparatus/seating position also. Example: Engine 2 Chauffer,Engine 2 Officer etc..We then expand to ICS terminology as appropriate.

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Permalink Reply by Marques Bush on July 16, 2008 at 1:28pm

My paid department is currently using the Unit ID with a letter from the Alphabet Ex. 361 A and which designates the driver.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Puchol on July 16, 2008 at 5:25pm

In our small department we use an alphabet letter followed by a number that identifies the rank. For example, B-1 would be the chief, B-2 the deputy chief, and from there on downwards. Keep in mind I said 'small', meaning we know each other by name -and- callsign. It works for us, but bigger departments and operations need other systems.

I have always believed that in bigger operations, designators should be for teams. For example, if you're doing two-in, two-out, the two-in are one single callsign (which in case of them being split or needing to refer to each other can use Alpha and Bravo). The initial part should also be descriptive - and I may contradict some purists here. Certainly, Bravo-Golf-twentyone-Alpha is much more intelligible over the radio...but are you going to end up remembering what each letter stands for? In my years, I have never had a problem understanding "Entry One to Engine 22" said over the radio, as an example. If radio conditions are so bad, you may make things worse by using alphabet-soup ("did he say Bravo-Golf or Bravo-Tango?" when you hear "Bravo-pffttfpfsssh").

I will add that our state-wide department recently changed the system once more, and now uses a two-part vehicle designator (eg. 15-30). The driver of the engine always refers to himself as the vehicle number. A portable radio depending on that vehicle would be the vehicle number plus the word "portable". I am against this as it creates a huge confusion on the fireground when many vehicles and firefighters are involved (see the previous paragraph).

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Permalink Reply by Dan Walker on July 16, 2008 at 8:47pm

Hi Keith,
We are a volunteer/paid department and try to keep it easy. We have found out this works well for us, since we have different FF's in different positions at all times. IC is "Fire Command", Search 1, Search 2, Fire Attack 1, Fire Attack 2, Roof 1 Roof 2. As any fire scene grows we will add a "1st floor operations" and "2nd floor operations", then respected floor operations will report to that operations officer who will then report to fire command. We have established the rule that all members of the team may have radios but the officer or senior FF is the one who communicates back to command. Communcation from Fire Command to truck operators will be as follows Engine 51, Ladder 52, etc, from Fire Command. This all comes together on the accountabilty board where all team members are with the correct group. The command staff is the only one that retains designated titles. No names or helmet numbers to remember just the actions they are performing.

Dan

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Permalink Reply by Christopher Lince on July 16, 2008 at 8:52pm

Keith,

There are so many different options out there. If you use the aparatus number and riding position you would know "who" they are but not what they are doing. If you use there location and assignment you would know "what" they are doing but not who. In either case it is up to the IC to track who is doing what. does that make any sence?

Chris

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Permalink Reply by Keith Addie on July 18, 2008 at 2:42pm

Pete,

That's a pretty good way of identifying your personnel on scene. Using this terminology indicates what company is talking and where they are on the fireground. Both of these aspects are important when operating at a fire scene. Thanks for the imput. BE SAFE!!!

Keith

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