large area search.What do you use?what works and what does not.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Simmons on August 13, 2008 at 11:26pm

Maybe you've seen this already but you should check out a video on lbfdtraining.com called Large Area Search Video . This is what our department is moving towards.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on August 14, 2008 at 4:45pm

The method shown on the Long Beach site is the method developed by FDNY and works very well. The one thing to remember is not to get farther into the building then the air you have in your bottle. If you divide your bottle into thirds you will have 1/3 to go in, 1/3 to come out and then 1/3 as reserve should something go wrong.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Poyner on August 15, 2008 at 2:36pm

I have'nt seen the video,but I will.Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Poyner on August 15, 2008 at 2:38pm

Thats a good idea.We just have to remember that if and when we go to work.Thanks

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Permalink Reply by john wakie jr. on September 12, 2008 at 5:02pm

search line is a must have in any large area building. This line should have distance knots as well as directional knots tied into the line the line. The line should be clipped to the bag in which it will be deploying from to prevent losing the line should all the line be used. Members should use their personal ropes to search off of this line or have a member guide them using the thermal imaging camera; keeping one member on the line at all times.I have many large commerical buildings in my response area. My company frequently uses this line. Most of these buildings are old heavy timber commerical factorys that have been abandoned. We get alot of fires in these buildings due to squatters and homeless people. If you have any questions abour the type of rope or the knot system just ask - John

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Permalink Reply by Charley Cashen on February 2, 2009 at 4:09pm

Hi Chris, I just came on board a couple of weeks ago and I'm still feeling my way around. On Dec. 18,1999, in Kansas City Missouri we lost a dear friend, an innovator and a great fireman in B.C.John Tvedten. He died after the Worcester 6 and before the Keokuk, Ia. 3. We had shredded paper involved at box plant(an old Milgram's warehouse)where the employees tried to fight the fire for 45 in prior to calling us. when we got there visibility was limited to around 20 feet and had the illusion of overhaul so a lot of people worked without facepeices not realizing they were breathing live smoke and concentrated CO. John's CO blood level was 51% he asked if everyone had made it outside and went to sleep eternal. At the time Kansas City had no Thermal Imaging cameras and the closest one was in a neighboring city and arrived on the scene as we found John.
Lessons learned that night was that someone needed to control entry into the building and an organized search needs to be set in motion.
To that end a group of dedicated F.F.'s developed what is called "Kansas City's L.A.S.T." and briefly; a four person team readies themselves and the special equipment that was developed for this technique at the door that is controlled by the door branch consisting of two officers each with a radio one one the original channel to communicate with the victim and the rescue team and the other on the moved channel to communicate with IC. Two of the four search for victim with camera and deploying un-knotted rope to allow the other half of their team to come in to help with the extrication of the victim. This was developed over the course of three years and we'll put this technique up against anything out their. that same group of firefighters go around the state to teach departments so that this will not happen again.
Feel free to contact me, Charley

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Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on February 2, 2009 at 7:21pm

Charley,

What happens when your camera fails?

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Permalink Reply by Charley Cashen on February 2, 2009 at 7:52pm

Chris Piepenburg said:

Charley,

What happens when your camera fails?

Well Chris the way the electronics are today we teach a couple of different options. In a high priority rescue, all resources will be headed toward the rescue point of entry, (this is Kansas City), and the the "B" team can shuttle another camera up the rope, or the "A" team can drop the bag and retreat while another team starts another line with an additional camera. After John died the public outpouring was overwhelming and today all trucks,15, have a TIC and our three rescues have two TICs each.
Also I think I left out our air management being handle by contacting the team every three minutes, not for an update, just a simple "copy". Depending on the size of the rescuer 9 to 12 minutes spent searching with no joy brings that rescuer out of the building, brief the second RIT and find our brother/sister. This is one area we drill on hoping and praying we never use it. I hope this answered your question.

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Permalink Reply by Shawn Tibbitts on February 3, 2009 at 3:30pm

Hi Chris
What we do is send a line straight in anchored at both ends the rope has stops every 10 ft. cords similar to retractable dog leashes are attached to the "safety line" this will give you 10ft circles to search on one side (ff on each side of line) after area is searched you move "dog leash" to next 10 ft knot section. We hardly ever use this, we train on it but have never had to use this method in a real life situation. At the vary least hopefully this will at least be food for thought.
Take care and be safe

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Permalink Reply by Chris Poyner on February 3, 2009 at 8:53pm

Since I posted this our dept. purchased a new large area search bag.It consists of 200ft search rope with directional markers every 20ft and tie off rings for our tag lines.Our tag lines contain 20ft off retractable line.We also changed the way we do our lagre area searches.We now conduct our large area search the way the Long Beach Fire Dept does theirs and it works well for us.Thanks for the replies.It has helped my dept.

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Permalink Reply by Joe on February 5, 2009 at 2:43pm

john wakie jr. said:

search line is a must have in any large area building. This line should have distance knots as well as directional knots tied into the line the line. The line should be clipped to the bag in which it will be deploying from to prevent losing the line should all the line be used. Members should use their personal ropes to search off of this line or have a member guide them using the thermal imaging camera; keeping one member on the line at all times.I have many large commerical buildings in my response area. My company frequently uses this line. Most of these buildings are old heavy timber commerical factorys that have been abandoned. We get alot of fires in these buildings due to squatters and homeless people. If you have any questions abour the type of rope or the knot system just ask - John

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Permalink Reply by Joe on February 5, 2009 at 2:46pm

John,
I am looking to purchase a search rope and i also want to both distance and egress markers. I havent found anything that i like do you a suggestion .
Joe

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