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The A,B,C's or The 1,2,3's............
Ok, so this may end up be a bit controversial....but at least it isn't about Politics.
My Department operates in a County that has a well put together Mutual Aid system. Part of this system is a Commitee that develops and reviews policies and run cards for the individual Departments. This ensures that for the most part we are all on the same page when we operate.
Up until several years ago (5 or 6) we used numbers (get it..the 1,2,3 part?) to identify the sides of a structure. My Chief at the time was dead set against making a change to the "National" way and served on the Mutual Aid Commitee.
After he retired, the ICS sub committee submitted a recommendation that the County ICS policy change and we switch to using the A,B,C's to identify sides.
Since the change, the have been numerous times when there has been confusion in identifying the sides by letter. Specifically B and D sound the same. Especially when spoken quickly, or under a mask.
At one point we asked our Chief to appraoch the Mutual Aid Committe and open a discussion about changing back to numbers. Afetr all there was rarely any confusion, and they don't sound the same. One argument against a change is that we have to use the letters to be NIMS compliant. Of course the NIMS argument is also tied to grants.
Now there was never a strong push to make people use the Phonetic Alphabet, which certainly can avoid confusion.
So my question is, what does everyone else use? Why? And do you have any issues with confusion?
My Department operates in a County that has a well put together Mutual Aid system. Part of this system is a Commitee that develops and reviews policies and run cards for the individual Departments. This ensures that for the most part we are all on the same page when we operate.
Up until several years ago (5 or 6) we used numbers (get it..the 1,2,3 part?) to identify the sides of a structure. My Chief at the time was dead set against making a change to the "National" way and served on the Mutual Aid Commitee.
After he retired, the ICS sub committee submitted a recommendation that the County ICS policy change and we switch to using the A,B,C's to identify sides.
Since the change, the have been numerous times when there has been confusion in identifying the sides by letter. Specifically B and D sound the same. Especially when spoken quickly, or under a mask.
At one point we asked our Chief to appraoch the Mutual Aid Committe and open a discussion about changing back to numbers. Afetr all there was rarely any confusion, and they don't sound the same. One argument against a change is that we have to use the letters to be NIMS compliant. Of course the NIMS argument is also tied to grants.
Now there was never a strong push to make people use the Phonetic Alphabet, which certainly can avoid confusion.
So my question is, what does everyone else use? Why? And do you have any issues with confusion?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Art Zern on -
Hey Dave,
I'll jump in and get started. Following the national system, we have been using letters to designate "sides" and numbers for floors. Often using the names Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and Deta seem to work better and avoid the confusion between B and D sides. I work in the area where MABAS began and therefore the MABAS Division numbers are low. We are in Divisions ! and 3. Interestingly enough, working a several multiple alarms in multi-story buildings, the Division 3 (third floor) or Division 1 )first floor) designationhas caused confusion on the Mutual Aid channel with the MABAS dispatch centers. There have been times when the dispatch centers think companies are calling dispatch when they are calling the Division 1 or 3 Supervisor.
Most of the Chicago Metro area is using the national system; however, Chicago still uses numbers for building sides.
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Permalink Reply by Dennis E Sampson on -
Dave,
My Dept has been using the letter sides and number floors for some time and have no problems with communications. For the most part it is probably because the firefighters operating on the fire ground have been trained since day 1 with the Alpha, Bravo/Division 1 Division 2 IC / NIMS system. We are very progressive and makes it easy to operate with surounding Departments as well as in the County .We are also on some strike teams and task forces with the county and are required to use this system at the county level.
STAY SAFE !! Dennis
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Permalink Reply by Dave LeBlanc on -
Thanks for the responses...
I should add that the problem doesn't just lie with our Department.
Dennis, it would seem that the failure to push for using the Phonetic Alphabet is where the problem stems from. It is an issue that needs to be addressed before something serious happens.
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Permalink Reply by Dennis E Sampson on
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Hey Dave,
At our County Fire Acedemy the training buildings are all labeled Alfa, Bravo Charlie, Delta and when the FF1 class is in session this is drilled into their heads as with Division1, etc for the floors, You see it and here it when using the IC system which reinforces what the FF 's have learned. We communicate this way at all alarms large or small and it becomes second nature. National standards are the way to go but in the fire service we can not agree on much of anything due to traditional ways and the failure to look at injuries and deaths with an open mind and understand that change is a good thing. How do you deal with exposures in your area, 1, street, 2, 2 story similar, 3, rear lot, 4, 2 story similar or exposure A,B,C,D ? Little steps turn into big steps and before long we are all walking at the same pace. Any time you talk about a building use the Phonetic Alphabet and have a tri town table top on a dry-erace board and lable the sides of the buildings you draw, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta and discuss the operations and when officers communicate just by visually seeing the words they will use them,it's a start.
STAFE SAFE !! Dennis
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Permalink Reply by Shane Furuta on -
Hey Guys!
In my department, we are now using letters to designate sides, and numbers for floors. Initially, we would say, "Side A, Side B, etc." We have since gone to phonetics. It seems to have taken care of any problems as far as confusion between "B" and "D" goes. I agree that we (the fire service) should adhere to a National standard, especially since it already exists. I have listened to some excellent radio transmissions of firegrounds in which NIMS was utilized. And even though I am thousands of miles away across the Pacific Ocean, I could still follow everything that was going on at that fire. Of course nobody likes change, but change does not always have to be a bad thing. Now with that said, what is everyone using for exposure designation? Is there even a standard for exposures? I am asking because even within my own department, we have conflicting ideas. I have learned it both ways, "Exposure 1, Exposure 2, and Exposure Alpha, Exposure Bravo". Does NIMS have a recommended term?
Aloha -Shane
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Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on -
Dave,
In my department we use the A,B,Cs... to distinguish the sides of the building where we are operating. I have heard as you have that B,C and D all sound very similar over the radio with rig and operation noise. Many folks within our department are trying to get people to use the phonetic alphabet, but it is hard to get people into a habit they have been doing for years. Also, i think it really depends on where you go in this country as to how folks distinguish the sides of the buildings.
Chris
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Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on -
Hey Dave,
We use Alpha, Bravo, etc. for "sides" and numbers for divisions (floors). We used to use numbers for sides and switched to letters for NIMS compliance. I actually prefer letters for sides and numbers for floors. In a mayday situation you don't want to get confused between sides and floors, "Was that side 2 floor 3 or the other way around?" For exposures we use letters as well and add a number for multiple exposures on a side. For example the "Alpha 2" exposure would be the second building from the origional fire building in the Alpha direction. The only problems I've noticed is that on large buildings folks talk about the "Bravo Charlie side". Is that on the Bravo wall or the Charlie wall? We don't really have a good system for making the building quadrants. Our SOGs say quadrants are numbers but you have to specify that you are talking about a quadrant, i.e. "Charlie quadrant 1". A little unwieldy to say the least. Good luck with everything, and stay safe.
Chris
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Permalink Reply by Todd Haines on -
I was involved with a multi-jurisdictional exercise a couple of weeks ago that involved police, fire, ems and other response agencies. One of the biggest concerns I saw was the first-in engine gave a great size-up utlizing Side A, B, C, D and when the police units arrived on scene they used North, South, East and West and the situation got confused when during the response and the exercise even with a joint unified command established. The mutual aid police, state, federal and volunteer organizations had no clue what A, B,C,D side of the building meant but the fire guys where still using that for their reports??? Is directional better than numbers or letters and are we communicating and using those designations in everyday operations, especially police units??
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Permalink Reply by Chris Fleming on
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Hey Todd,
If I had a dollar everytime the police and the the fire department miscommunicated... Only kidding. I guess in that situation I would want to know what the situation is and who's in charge. If it is a fire incident (including terrorism and haz mat) the F.D. is in command until the incident is stabilized since they are going to be doing most of the operating initially. At that point, the unified command and all units operating should follow the terminology that the IC is using. At least here, we've had problems in getting PD to play well with others. I think they are used to operating independently and without mutual aid. If there does seem to be an issue, the IC has to get everyone on the same page. As far as using compass direction, that is confusing because one person's South is another person's East. Particularly in rural places or in older cities where nothing is in a straight line. That sort of issue should be fixed at a pre-drill meeting or as a part of the jurisdictional emergency plan. I know, easier said than done! Good luck, stay safe.
Chris
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Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on
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We also use the numbering system for floors.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on
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Chris,
The way I see it is that when folks are refering to the BravoCharlie side, they should actually be calling it the Bravo/Charlie CORNER. Otherwise you are on the Bravo side or the Charlie side.
Hey, but what do I know??
Piep
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Permalink Reply by Chris Piepenburg on
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Hell, here in Colorado not many folks know where North is if they can't see the mountains!
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