Training Frustration

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Greg Wild on April 28, 2009 at 11:38am

Chris,

Good question with many answers. First, if you have 6 aquired structures and they are all truly 1403 compliant, good for you and the whole organization. This alone, is worth bragging about since many departments don't comply because they feel that it's not important. Remember, 1403 was developed because of a Brothers death during training exercise. We do know that there have been other multiple deaths during live fire training since then, but what we don't know is how many firefighters have had a succesful and safe training day because of this document. So, support it and follow it. No matter what. If you (the organization can't) then don't burn.

You hit on a very good question about training the younger generation. This is a national issue, just not in your department. We are hiring/recruiting younger, inexperienced firefighters these days, and with a fires lower than in years past, it is difficult and maybe impossible to have as many "seasoned veterans" as before. This will mean that they need training more than ever. While we can't control the number of runs they go on, we can control what we teach them.

If you are an instuctor--Then instruct--Focus on the basics that will make the entire fireground a success. The tactics of moving a line, fire behavior, search, ladders, ventilation, you get the point. Teach to their level and remember that it takes a long time to be a "good" firefighter. It takes discipline and passion. Share some of yours with them. Don't allow shortcuts. Enforce the basics and practice them often. Explain to them why they need to do it multiple times and about their "Muscle Memory".

1403 does not exist because "people were stupid". It exists because of a tragic event were we lost our Brothers. Sometimes things happen. We need to do everything to prevent that again. Every training day.

FTM-PTB
Greg

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on April 28, 2009 at 12:33pm

Chris,
I understand where you are coming from, but, frustration will take its toll on any good firefighter. We as instructors, company officers, chiefs, etc, can not afford to be complacent, in our training of any firefighter. I agree with Greg, train regularly on the basics, be passionate about our profession in every evolution. Some firefighters complain about the basics, explain that these same basics will keep them as safe as possible, to serve the public we are sworn to protect. I commend your department, I wish my place had 6 1403 compliant structures, for me to train my guys and gals. Everyday is a training day, regardless of the Springer Show!

Stay Safe, KTF
Jeff

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Chris Sterricker on April 28, 2009 at 1:02pm

Greg, I agree that 1403 is important and that it was developed because of a brother or sisters death. I meant no disrespect to anyone's memory. I don't want to get too far off of he main thought of my original post but I think this lends to good discussion also. "Tragic", according to the Oxford dictionary is defined as; "causing or characterized by great sorrow." Clearly a fitting definition for any loss of a brother or sister, regardless of situation. "Stupid" is defined as; "lacking intelligence or common sense." While not trying to impugn anyone's personal intelligence the "lacking...common sense" part also fits many LODD reports I have read which were the result of training.

While we were conducting this training we, the instructors, noticed that we, the department, were developing what we call "tower habits", referring to our training tower. That being that the participants know exactly where the fire is, its basic extent, what is involved and the most basic steps needed to control the situation. This leads to a robotic evolution in which it is difficult, at best, to instruct. Example:

The first burn house was a split level home. Open the door, full flight of steps up to the main living area, half-flight down to the lower level. Fire was set in the bedroom at the end of the hallway at the A-B side on the upper level. Wide-open living room to the A-D side at the top of the stairs. I was always taught, and continue to teach, that you stow hose as you advance. Like in the wide open living room that is in direct alignment with the hallway the crews were advancing down. Not one of our crews did this. When I brought this up at the post evolution critique I was jumped by officers and blueshirts alike. The reason was simple. "We already know where the fire is and how far it is to get there."

When arguments and cases for stowing hose were brought out it was rebuffed with the usual, "well, yeah if I'm in that situation then I'd do it." Forget about what that may say about my department, I already know. But this is what I was really getting at in my original post. Is training being made so watered down that instead of developing good, sound habits and having the added benefit of exposing less experienced members to "actual" live fire conditions are we just making it an unrealistic presentation of what they will face in a real working fire.

Yes, I whole-heartedly agree it is our job as instructors to instruct. I have been in the fire service for about 15 years. I have been an instructor for about 7. In that time I have noticed that in the "old days" (a relative term) we spent far more time doing the drills with minor tweeks and thoughts given out by the instructors. Maybe this was because of the group of guys, I don't know. But now it seems as if we are spending more and more time breaking these habits that are being developed and going back and covering things that should already be the basis of our skill sets. I, personally, believe that some of this is due to the constraints that certain aspects of 1403 puts on us. I am not out to get anyone hurt or worse. I am not a reckless instructor or someone who thinks he is reincarnated from a truckie in 1960's Chicago or New York either. But I think that some realism needs to be allowed for or these bad habits will be carried over to the fireground where it matters the most. You can't pretend every situation on the training ground. You need to see it, feel it, hear it, do it.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Greg Wild on April 28, 2009 at 2:31pm

Chris,

I understand and feel your pain! Sounds all to familiar. I am a career Captain and often teach many of our "In Service" and other types of training. The students of today are different than when we first started aren't they? I would bet that when you and I were new that we would never second guess an instructor during live fire training and never do it any different in training than on the scene. EX: The students of today have no idea about Pride and Ownership (Lasky) and are all to fast to run to Human Resources when they feel that they are mistreated. This happened to me two years ago because I told 1 probie he needed to go faster during primary search training!

I think that you have your work ahead of you. Maybe you could get the officers on board and explain that they should try and "practice like they play". Meaning, train as if it's the real deal. You may need to sell them on this so they can help you sell it to the guys (and girls to be PC).

Try spending time before the drill explaining why you want it to be real and be specific. Let them know your expectations. After you practice the drill, send the units out and call them to the scene in "real time". Camcord them during the training. You will find that they will be the biggest critics of each other. Use some Niosh reports of LODD's in training to reinforce your point. Use some of the senior firefighters that have the passion and ask them to help you. Get them involved.

Whatever you do, don't quit! Your positive attitude will be contagious and others will have a buy in. Just answer the "what's in it for me?" question that they have and maybe you can turn the ship and they will start to buy in on the plan!

Be Safe Brother
PTB-FTM
Greg
www.midtennfools.com

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Phil Jose on April 30, 2009 at 5:19pm

Chris,

I will chime in with the rest here and congratulate you for all the work you've done and the success you have had. I agree wholeheartedly with your approach to "tower tactics" versus real and believe in a practice as you play approach. I would like to offer one idea that we have gone to in regards live fire and it's effectiveness in teaching non-probie firefighters.

We tried the 1403 live fire acquired structure stuff for a couple of years. Expensive, time consuming, and due to the limitation you identified of questionable worth for experienced people. Not to say some stuff wasn't learned but rather that the overall value to the organization was not high relative to the expenditure in both time and money. We consistently saw the same types of "task" level challenges that you are seeing without being able to get consistent improvement across the department. Now, before you think I'm slamming my boys here is Seattle, whom I love, the problems were relatively minor in nature and often fell into the category you have describe in your post. The , "this worked here so why shouldn't I do it that way" sort of approach.

Long story short we eventually moved to decision-based MCO's with active debriefing after each evolution. We have done this in acquired structures (non-live fire) and our newly minted burn prop. We do have classroom before and lay out the decision-making information needed for a specific types of evolutions but we do not proscribe a specific approach to the incident. We "dispatch" our folks and they roll in, take action (including necessary command functions, lines, searches, ventilation, supplies etc.) and have to work with and for each other. The instructor cadre watches closely and feeds information when appropriate. The information is designed to give the crews information they would have IF we could build the fire we are trying to represent. An example would be a basement fire scenario. When the crew reaches the basement door the instructor would tell them the door is hot. If they open it the instructor would give them varying degrees of heat and smoke, through telling, that the team would feel if the basement were partially, slightly, or fully involved. They are then left to make their own decisions about what to do and how to communicate.

A great example of this type of training can be found in an FE article by Mike Posner and Bob Carpenter from Miami-Dade. I'm pretty sure you can find them here on the community also. They give a great class on the subject.

Anyway...

We follow the evolution with a discussion based critique and get most of the positive and negatives out in the air. (Isn't always perfect) but we are moving forward as an organization and giving the BC's more opportunity to work on their post-incident critique skills. The best part is that we are seeing results in the street with better coordination and communication. It is also apparent that the crews are practicing the basics more because they don't want to let the other crews down during the evolution. Overall, and I think my fellow instructors would agree, the impact to the effectiveness of the organization is much higher than what we got from 1403 in acquired structures.

Hope this helps, keep up the good work, take care of the troops.

Phil

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Bryan Downie on May 14, 2009 at 9:13am

Greg Wild said:

Chris,

Good question with many answers. First, if you have 6 aquired structures and they are all truly 1403 compliant, good for you and the whole organization. This alone, is worth bragging about since many departments don't comply because they feel that it's not important. Remember, 1403 was developed because of a Brothers death during training exercise. We do know that there have been other multiple deaths during live fire training since then, but what we don't know is how many firefighters have had a succesful and safe training day because of this document. So, support it and follow it. No matter what. If you (the organization can't) then don't burn.

You hit on a very good question about training the younger generation. This is a national issue, just not in your department. We are hiring/recruiting younger, inexperienced firefighters these days, and with a fires lower than in years past, it is difficult and maybe impossible to have as many "seasoned veterans" as before. This will mean that they need training more than ever. While we can't control the number of runs they go on, we can control what we teach them.

If you are an instuctor--Then instruct--Focus on the basics that will make the entire fireground a success. The tactics of moving a line, fire behavior, search, ladders, ventilation, you get the point. Teach to their level and remember that it takes a long time to be a "good" firefighter. It takes discipline and passion. Share some of yours with them. Don't allow shortcuts. Enforce the basics and practice them often. Explain to them why they need to do it multiple times and about their "Muscle Memory".

1403 does not exist because "people were stupid". It exists because of a tragic event were we lost our Brothers. Sometimes things happen. We need to do everything to prevent that again. Every training day.

FTM-PTB
Greg

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Bryan Downie on May 14, 2009 at 9:28am

Lots of great advice in here from everyone. I've experienced the some of the same problems and potential solutions in my little part of the world.
Comments like "We already know where the fire is....." stem from complacent people. They either don't want to learn or don't want to do a little extra work, and that is exactly how they will operate on the fireground. Remember just because a building or multiple buildings have been aquired for live burns, doesn't mean you can't work on other things before you burn. Use the initial work in the buildings to go over options depending upon conditions, teach the tricks of the trade that others may not be familiar with. Work on the basics of your procedures to improve everyones skill level. This is an excellent time to work on accountability and communication issues. It is important that the instructors have a clear plan for instructing and teaching prior to taking the troops to the site. In any event, as Greg said, repeating the actions over and over are crucial. As a wise man once said, "Don't practice until you get it right, practice until you can't get it wrong".
Bryan Downie said:

Greg Wild said:

Chris,

Good question with many answers. First, if you have 6 aquired structures and they are all truly 1403 compliant, good for you and the whole organization. This alone, is worth bragging about since many departments don't comply because they feel that it's not important. Remember, 1403 was developed because of a Brothers death during training exercise. We do know that there have been other multiple deaths during live fire training since then, but what we don't know is how many firefighters have had a succesful and safe training day because of this document. So, support it and follow it. No matter what. If you (the organization can't) then don't burn.

You hit on a very good question about training the younger generation. This is a national issue, just not in your department. We are hiring/recruiting younger, inexperienced firefighters these days, and with a fires lower than in years past, it is difficult and maybe impossible to have as many "seasoned veterans" as before. This will mean that they need training more than ever. While we can't control the number of runs they go on, we can control what we teach them.

If you are an instuctor--Then instruct--Focus on the basics that will make the entire fireground a success. The tactics of moving a line, fire behavior, search, ladders, ventilation, you get the point. Teach to their level and remember that it takes a long time to be a "good" firefighter. It takes discipline and passion. Share some of yours with them. Don't allow shortcuts. Enforce the basics and practice them often. Explain to them why they need to do it multiple times and about their "Muscle Memory".

1403 does not exist because "people were stupid". It exists because of a tragic event were we lost our Brothers. Sometimes things happen. We need to do everything to prevent that again. Every training day.

FTM-PTB
Greg

▶ Reply to This

▶ Reply to This