Where firefighters come to talk training
Highrise packs
My department is in the process of reconfiguring our highrise/ standpipe packs. We have moved to 150' of 2 1/2" hose using 3 seperate bundles. We also use 1 1/4" soild stream nozzle. I am intetrested what other departments are using.
Bob
Bob
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on -
Brandon - Try and look at it this way. It's about the ability of the nozzle to pass debris. Fog nozzles clog much more easily than a Smooth Bore in standpipe operations. In addition a 2 1 /2 SB is a low pressure nozzle. What about the fog?
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Permalink Reply by Bob Shovald on -
Brandon
Also look at reaction force and gpm. A nozzle operating at 100 psi (as most fog nozzles are) has a reaction force of roughly 1/2 of it's gpm. Compare this to a nozzle operating at 50 psi which has a reaction force of roughly 1/3 of it's gpm. Now look at nozzle gpm and compare the 250 gpm of a typical 2 1/2" fog nozzle to the 325 gpm of the 1 1/4" SB. Thats more than 30% more water and less reaction force.
Bob
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Permalink Reply by Josh Schmidt on -
Something to be aware of in non-highrise standpipe equipped buildings... often these standpipes do not have to meet the same standards that highrise standpipes do.
My fire district has many of these "mid-rise" type buildings. Up until recently the buildings pre-plan would show them to have standpipes and even have their locations inside the building marked. Upon further inspection, however, we noticed two major problems:
1-Often the standpipe connection was not in the stairwell. This may not seem like a problem when you start to stretch the line, but once smoke conditions worsen and you begin to run low on air how do you get out of the building? Normally, you would follow the hoseline back, if the standpipe cabinet was in the middle of a hallway or just a room you might be in trouble if you can't remember how you got to that cabinet in the first place.
2-It can be hard to tell what the plumbing looks like behind the wall. Several of these buildings had only an 1 1/2" connection. We had thought this was no problem, since along with our 2 1/2" bundles, we carry an adapter kit that includes an 1 1/2" --> 2 1/2" increaser. When one of these buildings was being renovated, we realized the plumbing that went to the standpipe cabinet was 1 1/2" pipe all the way to the cabinet and did not take a direct route through the building. Obviously this 1 1/2" pipe was NOT going to adequately supply our 2 1/2" hose.
Because of this information we have changed some of our fire strategies in these types of buildings. Rather than relying on the standpipe we plan to stretch our own hose from our engine unless the quality of the standpipe can be readily validated.
Food for thought
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Permalink Reply by Ray McCormack on
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Josh - You standpipe connection area should be on the floor below the fire then you do not have to worry about finding your way to safety, even if the outlets are on the floor and not in the stairways. For a lower floor fire it is often best to hand stretch than use a questionable standpipe system.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on -
OKay, we need an official name for this fold. Some are calling it the "Bundles" , I learned it as the "Metro Pack."
As far as I'm concerned we can call it the "LeBlanc." Or how about this, the "Cal I forny!" or maybe the "CAS" roll which stands for Cool As Hell! ofcourse that name would need an alternative PC monicor such as Compressed Action System..... but I digress
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Permalink Reply by Dave LeBlanc on -
I learned it as the bundles, but whatever works Bro.....
Not sure I am worthy of having anything named for me, especially 'cause I took the idea off Youtube....
Imagine our forefathers with us getting ideas off the internet.............they'd be rolling around for sure.
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Permalink Reply by Dave LeBlanc on
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Brandon,
Shoot me an email and I will forward the stuff I used for the argument.
Ray and the others said it best, and those were the main arguments. Lower operating pressure and the ability to pass debris. The "it looks cool" argument also worked......
d.leblanc@comcast.net
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Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr (Casper) on -
We use 2 bundles of 1 3/4 (200') with combo nozzle. I understand every one using the 2.5 with a solid bore. But it must be very difficult to use once inside the fire apartment.
Could you not go with a 2.5 wyed to a 1 3/4. (100 each)The nozzle issue is the same I prefer the solid bore but the department Chief likes the Combo.
Beside's pressure/ volume why the 2.5 through out the load?
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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on
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Pressure and Volume are the main reasons. We may not have enough pressure to overcome friction loss in a smaller line and reinforced gpm is needed to expell the fire's BTU's.
A mop up line is fine but we try to reduce weight for crews climbing up the stairs. Having to carry 2 1/2" and 1 3/4" makes for a lot of hose. We may not know how much fire we'll have until we get there, may as well take a line that will handle both small and big fires.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Sorrentino on -
We have set up our high rise bag with 2 - 75' 13/4" lines with Elkhart 50/150 nozzles with breakaway nozzles with 1" SB tip and a gated "Y". We also have an extender bag wqith 50' of 3" line.
The lines can be set up as two 75' lines or at the fire floor connected to make 1 -150' line.
The nozzles flow 150 gpm @ 50 psi or in the SB config,210 gpm at 50 psi.
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Permalink Reply by James Weaver on -
Our current configuration is a standpipe kit, which contains a 6 ft section of 3 inch to come off the standpipe connection, to a gated wye 21/2 to 2-21/2s reduced to 11/2. the kit also contains an extra hand wheel for the standpipe connection, pipe wrench, wire brush, large cresent wrench, 2 spanners and a short peice of rope to tie the handle in the open position, so it doesnt get accidently closed. The highrise kit is 125 ft 2" hose with a 7/8 Pok smooth bore nozzle. ..we went ths way for a couple of different reasons, but ultimately we get excellent flow rate out of the 2" hose with the smooth bore and with limited manpower easier to deploy than the 21/2" . We went with light weight components where ever possiible, on gates, wrenchs ect. to lighten the load. We chose 125' length after doing some training . we found we could reach everywhere we needed to with 100' but wanted the insurance reach. we also color coded the hose to ensure it didnt loaded on regular preconnects... hope this is some help to you.......... good luck. jim
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Permalink Reply by Bob Franklin on -
Hello Bob,
Good choice. When I was in the training division, we did an in depth study of high rise packs. We were using 1-3/4 with Elkhart SM 20 automatic nozzles. Using a flow meter and in-line gauges we found the in most cases we were delivering around 48 to 70 gallons per minute. We got the local sprinkler dealer to help us with this problem. First he pointed out that the stand pipe system is designed to be tested using 2-1/2 hose and smooth bore tips. The system is not designed for the use of fog nozzles due to the high pressure, (usually 100 psi at the tip) and the low flows associated with the 1-3/4.
Basically put like this. The standpipe is a 12 gauge shot gun. It is designed to use 12 gauge ammunition (2-1/2 with smooth bore tip). Being firefighters, the 12 gauge shell were to heavy to carry, so why not carry a 22 bullet instead.( 1-3/4 or 1-/12 with a fog nozle) A 22 bullet will not fit into a 12 guage shot gun but, lets take a spent 12 guage shell drill out the fire pin to where a 22 bullet will it (2-1/2 to 1-1/2 reducer). Now I can use a 22 shell in the 12 guage shot gun.
Yes, you may be able to use it, it may fire, but it will not be effective. So basically it boils down to 1-3/4 was not designed to be used on standpipe systems due to the pressures needed to over come friction loss and nozzle pressures.
2-1/2 with a smoothbore nozzle requires low pressures to overcome friction loss and at 50 psi nozzle pressure will deliver large amounts of water. Heres another thought, what about all the debris that breaks loose in the piping as well as the stuff that has been stuffed into the siamese. Most if not all will pass through a smoothbore where it will stop up a fog nozzle. Take care and be safe.
Bob Franklin
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