YOU MAKE THE CALL!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dave LeBlanc on December 9, 2009 at 6:02am

Your scenario open up the age old discussion that has been covered before, and I am sure it is not the intent of the question. I'll add my comments on that at the end.

Using my staffing (3) I would conduct the VES and leave my firefighter at the ladder tip for orientation. I guess my argument is never sending someone to do something I wouldn't do. As I think about it, it would also depend on how everyone performed during that 1.5 hours. Maybe one of my crew is a natural. But since it would be unfamiliar under real life conditions for all of us, I would still be the first over the sill.


The second question that comes from this is: What are your priorities? Locate Confine Extinguish or Search?
Is anyone else inside the house? If you VES and there is no handline stretched to protect the rescue, what happpens then?

I may try and split hairs here and do both. Use my whole crew, advance the line into the building and then attempt to reach the baby from inside. That way the line is doing its job and the biggest risk is being made by me. Whatever I decide I will radio either Dispatch or the next due so that everyone knows we are operating on the ragged edge.

Unfortunately this is not an unlikely scenario. In our ever increasing world of decreasing manpower, these are the decisions and situations we will face. We need to figure out what the best way to operate is, oh and did I mention we need to figure that out at a time when fire duty is on the decline?

Permalink Reply by Kurt Callisen on December 10, 2009 at 2:31pm

If I was the officer of the 1st company and we were the engine with my 5 guys (3 on the engine and 2 on the ambo.) I would take a line inside and locate and confine the fire. When I had water on the fire if no other company has arrived I would leave the noozleman at the fire and myself and the backup guy would start a search. If I arrived 1st as the officer of the truck (3guys) VES would be my choice. The person that goes threw the window 1st would depend on who was on the company that day. As the officer it is my job to know who would be best for the job and the decision would be made by me. This is the time when the boss earns his dough. Stay safe.
Kurt

Permalink Reply by Todd Trudeau on December 10, 2009 at 4:03pm

Jeff,
Nice discussion!! Not being an officer, I'll take a stab at my thoughts as an AO. I would try to determine the scenerio in the bedroom window the mom is pointing to. Tenable? Not fit for survival? That will play a huge factor in decision making. (Granted the emotional factor will want to overtake judgement). If the conditions warrant possible rescue as opposed to body recovery, VES. Notify all responding units of rescue mode and go to work. This job is total teamwork and determination...if the crew doesn't have both, in all likelyhood it won't have a positive outcome.

In the end, have more than 1.5 hours of talk, training and planning!!

Thanks Jeff

KTF

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 11, 2009 at 11:50am

Great observations by all, Dave hit on a big one, Fire Duty is down, but fires will come. Knowing your crew! Do we have a shot at a rescue or, or we going to get someone hurt for a recovery. For me, like Dave said, I would be first over the sill. Communication will alway be a high priority,nothing worse than pulling up second due and no plan of action in place or relayed. I agree Todd 1.5 hours is not enough!!

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault on December 22, 2009 at 12:54pm

-The fact that firefighters only have an hour and a half in VES training is a huge issue in my opinion. VES is such a time tested and proven technique that it still surprises me that many firefighters do not know about or are not trained in VES.
-In the scenario given I will agree with previous responses that adherence to SOP's is essential. This is the very call that validates SOP's or causes them to be updated. SOP's are the playbook that makes this type of call run much more smoothly.
-As in all fire scenarios sticking to incident priorities is imperative. Life Safety, Incident Stabilization, Property Conservation, L.I.P. is the key. Rescue always takes priority to property conservation.
-However, just because the lady on the porch appears to be concerned about a life in jeopardy does not mean that is the case. She may be pointing out the fire, her wedding album or the family dog. It is crucial to take the five seconds to find out what she is excited about. And, as Tom Brennen was fond of pointing out, if she says something about her baby, ask what the baby's name is and what room the child is in. Is this a child or a pet or something else. Make the determination before committing and risking firefighter lives.
-In the scenario stated, if the responding company is a Ladder than it is natural for a Truck to split personnel in order to accomplish objectives. Splitting crews is not normal or acceptable for an Engine unless there is a clear justification such as a High or Urgent Rescue Profile. But again, this should be the exception to the rule (SOP).
-If, in this scenario, there is an established life in peril, a High or Urgent Rescue Profile, than on scene crews must do what they have to in order to save the victim. This is in keeping with the mantra...
1. Risk everything for a life
2. Risk a little for property
3. Risk nothing for that which is gone

Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on December 27, 2009 at 8:21pm

Brick, 1.5 hours isn't enough by any stretch of the imagination, but I witnesses some folks at training think this was a miricle gift that could be used at will. I also watched some look at the drill and say no way. There is a middle, but again we are back to drilling and figuring this out before the run comes in and like Dave pointed out for most of us fire duty is down, as well as our staffing levels. All of us are walking a fine line that seems to be getting thinner everyday.

Stay Safe!

Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on January 9, 2010 at 5:05pm

In my humble opinion, if my Truck Co arrived first due w/ 4 members, I would assign the other 2 members to VES that 2nd floor, I would immediately grab Mom and ask her specifically who and how many are still inside and where. I am assuming that the 1st floor main entrance is already open. I would get a report from the interior team and depending on conditions, they would continue a primary search of the 2nd floor and the 3rd member and myself would make entry on the first floor and locate the fire. I would then give a radio report to the 1st due Eng Co.

Permalink Reply by Tom Hofland on January 31, 2010 at 5:53pm

This is the assumed scenario for my company's first floor house fire SOPs. As we are a double house the Engine would take the fire and the Truck would split, Inside/VES. If however the Engine arrived alone the SOP would be for the line to be placed in service as the first priority. The backup man may then be broken off for a VES if needed. VES is a one man skill that should not be performed alone. With that in mind the Engine driver normally spot in front of the neighboring house and we operate off the tank initially at single family dwellings. The driver may take a supporting roll to the VES instead of securing a water supply. This is a tough choice, water or VES. I think it depends on when the next due company will arrive and conditions at the bedroom window (is the door shut? Can the rescue wait?)

Tommy