Paper Experts. No Street Skills!

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Permalink Reply by Nick Morgan on August 18, 2009 at 12:08pm

Brian,
I couldn't agree with you more!! I see two "pendulum swing" positions often presented in the fire service as "absolute truth". Either the "all education-no experience" or the "all experience-no education approach". I belong to a dept. that leans toward the latter position, though it is finally beginning to change. I have always believed strongly that we need BOTH. As an Air Force firefighter, we had excellent training and technical manuals, but very little experience. When I joined the St Louis Fire Department, we had the very opposite. Some firefighters were attending fire science courses at the community college, but it meant nothing as far as career advancement was concerned. Some of our members like to spout off about "never seen no book put out a fire", to which I respond, no but the authors of many of those books have both fought many fires and commanded many firegrounds, (especially Fire Engineering authors). I realize some fire service professionals, through no fault of their own, work for departments that don't see much actaul fire duty. These people can still contribute valuable training and educational material to the larger fire service, but they should not pass themselves off as "experienced personnel" when it comes to fire ground experience, but rather defer to those who have that experience. I've becomed convinced that the greatest threat to firefighters is our own EGOS.
Stay Safe!!

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Permalink Reply by Mike Walker on August 18, 2009 at 10:34pm

Why are people always bashing Kool-Aid? I love Black Cherry.... :)

Damn Jim Jones

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Permalink Reply by Tim Selement on August 19, 2009 at 9:44pm

I dont have much experiance but this rings of truth!!

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Permalink Reply by Mark Wadsworth on September 25, 2009 at 1:35pm

A bit late to the discussion...again. Brian, so true is your statement. Seems to be a common problem in our profession. We all know the paper qualified people and those as you have stated with "street skills" that you really want to listen to and follow. I have worked for a few departments some busy and some not. As Nick stated "some fire service professionals, through no fault of their own, work for departments that don't see much actaul fire duty." I work for a department now that does not see much fire activity, but I think we have a lot to offer in other areas based on our own "street skills" Knowing our limitations is the key and not being afraid to admit it. I would rather follow most of you guys down a dark hallway anyday over someone who claims to be experienced on paper or like myself that does not see fire very often. I wish there was more people that realize this and could check their egos at the door. We had a part-timer a few years back who was a paid FF in San Francisco, and I'll tell you what, I was looking for that guy everytime we had a fire because I knew he was the guy I wanted next to me. Great topic.

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Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on September 25, 2009 at 2:19pm

Mark,

You're never too late brother! Good thoughts, glad you chimed in.

Brian

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on September 25, 2009 at 3:14pm

Mark, my part of the world is like yours Brother, we get our statistical share of fires, both in town and out, assisting another dept. Those are more fun, Not as much to write. We all need to educate ourselves when any opportunity presents itself, but, we can't afford to rest on paper. While, at times I wish my place caught the jobs, Brian does, it won't happen, now I'll go back on the 1st. and lay line 2-3 times. You are very correct by saying know you limitations, that's why we are a company.We all do the job together, mound of paper or not.

Stay safe
Jeff

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Permalink Reply by Brian Arnold on September 26, 2009 at 6:48pm

Jeff, you are sooooo correct about grabbing oppourtunity when it comes along. I hope you lay 4 lines when you get back and it goes flawlessly. In the last several months our fire duty has dropped off to almost nothing. 2 good jobs in the last couple of months....you gotta be kidding me! So we turn to the next best thing; acquired structure burns and time in the burn building. When the jobs aren't coming we step up the training even a little bit more until it cycles back around---- and it always does...hehe. When we start getting busy again the boys are still in the saddle and ready to perform without a refresher.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on September 26, 2009 at 6:59pm

Brian, I hope you're putting the positive hex on me Brother! I would like dropping that much line all three days of my rotation, flawlessly, I hope. My company needs some good old fashioned FIRE DUTY!

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Permalink Reply by Mark Wadsworth on September 26, 2009 at 7:29pm

I agree that some old fashioned fire duty would do us all good. I could use some positve hex's on me also...seem to be missing all the action lately. Good fire wishes for us all....cheers.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault on October 4, 2009 at 4:19pm

-Wow Brian it is always inspirational to hear someone speak the truth.
-What I find just as frustrating is these same lofty leaders who disparage, minimize and discount actual firefighters with lots of real world experience simply because these firefighters do not hold a promoted rank or have the alphabet soup after their name.
-I agree that there is value in having the sheep skin and/or rank but as you pointed out, real world experience has tremendous value too that should not be overlooked or discounted. In fact, real world experience should be evaluated in order to be factored into the overall picture.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Schwering on October 4, 2009 at 7:55pm

Brick, I couldn't agree with you more, Bro! The last thing a boss should do is look down on real world experience. As a Captain, these are the people that are my go to folks. I'm a firefighter first and will always be, but now I'm in the position, sort of, of being able to place that value of real world experience on my folks. Yes, you know, that can be a double-edged sword because of the world we live in.

KTF
Jeff

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Permalink Reply by Bryan Lafleur on October 10, 2009 at 9:58am

Absolutely. I am personnally a big fan of reading service journals and books, there is a lot to learn from others experiences. But my department, and I'm sure others, are putting a huge emphasis on certifications. Certs can now be gotten online, and I have a few. And even those I've gotten in class were often using IFSTA books. I have found little good to come from these IFSTA books and next to nothing good come out of an online class

But here's the dilemna, with many departments creating these box checking races, many are spending what time they do have taking many courses where they learn little, just to have the opportunity to take promotion tests. Where as so many very good courses and reading material is left out of the point tally, so too many don't get to them.

I would love to see these courses mandatory:
Smoke reading
Building construction using Brannigans book.
Line officer course using John Norman's book
Any leadership course using Dennis Compton, Paul Stein, or other like them.

My pet peeve is leadership training. The IFSTA leadership books are based around civilian business management using a list of useless theories, but little usefull info. The Marine Corps puts what is needed in their Leadership Traits and Principles http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/usmcleadership.pdf , and is directly related to our field.

So yeah, not only do I agree there is more emphasis put on pieces of paper than actual useful stuff, I have a problem with what is covered with that piece of paper.

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