Rescue vs Ventilation

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Trey Nelms on January 27, 2009 at 4:19pm

As a member of an inner city Truck Co. in a large metropolitan department, it's nice to know I'm not the only one riding on the 3 man Truck. This is an everyday occurance.
To add to the discussion, I feel the Truck's primary responsibility is RESCUE. The VES concept is ideal with the limited staffing situation. It gets you in quick, you perform your search, and make the grab if you find someone. Hopefully the Engine crew is on their game and gets the appropriate line in place and achieves a quick knock down. This will ultimately make conditions get better for all (putting the bulk of the fire out).
To accomplish this coordinated fire attack/search, my department would have 4 members operating interior. The Engine backstepper and Officer are on the line and the Truck Boss and Backstepper are on search. The Engine Chauffeur is on the panel and trying to get a water supply while the Truck Chauffeur is laddering, setting up lights, etc. on the outside.
I'm going to throw something in to bust the bubble of the whole scenario. What do you do when one of your crew members is a "Load" (Someone who doesn't pull their weight, so you have to carry them)? This completely throws the effectiveness of this operation out the window. My house has terrific firemen, but many "employees" (I can't bring myself to call them firemen) at several stations in my city are their for the days off, benefits, and days off. You can not and will not make them go into a fire. Some of them won't even do work on the exterior. They expend more energy getting out of work or trying to "hide". The "load" contributes little if any, the fire continues to grow, and a human life that could have possibly been saved is lost. I know this isn't just happening in my neck of the woods.
They guys I work with are extremely effective and work well together. We have an Engine/Truck house and run with 3 and 3. We've all been together for at least 8 years, and the Truck Boss, Chauffeur, and Engine Capt. all have over 30 years on the job. The years operating, training, and experiencing our jobs together seals the deal for us. Everyone works hard, knows their assignement, and effectively executes. It's like a well oiled machine. Occasionally we are thrown a curve ball, but I think we do pretty well.
Another thing for us regarding this scenario, I am located in the inner city. If we get there with an Engine and Truck, two more Engines, a Rescue, and a District Chief will all be their very quickly. In other parts of the city, the first due might be on scene for a while with no help. This will also factor.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault on January 30, 2009 at 12:55pm

-Many respondents have noted or spoken to the value of VES as a viable technique for performing a primary search. Personally, I like VES, I use VES and I teach VES. That being said, VES is not a tactic for everyday use and it is certainly not an acceptable technique to substitute low/poor staffing.
-Some basic and necessary components for VES implementation are:
1. a know or highly suspected victim
2. the victim is in a known or highly suspected location.
-In other words, there is a High or Urgent Rescue Profile in one of the High Target Areas of the occupancy.
-A issue of much confusion about VES is that it is an entry technique, a point of entry to search a floor or area. In fact, VES is an aggressive search technique used to search a specific room only; a High Target Area. If conditions permit an extended search of the floor then you're not using VES your searching the floor. This point bears reiterating; VES is for conducting an aggressive search for a known victim (highly suspected and not just bystander information), in a High Target Area, a specific room only.
-VES is not a substitute for staffing but rather to be implemented under very specific conditions, usually by very experienced members working ahead of the attack line and in direct proximity to the fire, in order to search and effect the rescue of a known victim in a known location.

Permalink Reply by Chad Snyder on February 12, 2009 at 1:38am

Looks like the fire on this one is starting to die down... Maybe I'll start up the PPV fan and get it going again!!! Just kidding. Thanks for all the responses!

Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on March 20, 2009 at 9:31am

With a 3 man Truck, the option of splitting up into 2 teams is null and void. In this scenario, my truck is going to ventilate in order to make it easier for the attack and the for next in co's to search. After we open the roof, we'll report to the Chief that we are ready to assist with the search. From a Truck point of view, with smoke and fire pushing out of the eaves and windows on the 2nd floor of a 2 floor aprtment building,I would advise the BC that a vertical vent is more appropriate here then PPV initially.

Permalink Reply by Scott Huff on May 11, 2009 at 6:12am

This sounds like most agencies at a 0600 call. Of course depending on the occupancy and where the stairs are, I would absolutely go with rescue attempt. Risk vs Benefit would be warranted on structure type and involvement, but, absolutely go with throwing ladders and VES, especially if your not sure on location of stairs and have a good last seen point. VES works well with your short 3 person truck, 2 in searching 1 out throwing ladders. With another truck on the way or on the scene venting and VES as well. (or using another engine crew for the 2nd truck..I know pushing it to say and engine can do truck work!) You still have to put the fire out or at least control it enough to get your search on! Search crews with water cans can buy you that time it takes engine crews to advance the lines, and closing doors is an important function of your search moving from the seat of the fire outward.

Permalink Reply by Michael Beilinson on May 13, 2009 at 9:52am

3 guys is a very realistic truck crew in a voulenteer setting...If i was the boss for this I would split my crew i would have one guy go to the roof and get a good vent and i would have the chauf VES the rear and the boss go through the front door with the irons and bunny tool and would search....I come from an area that truck guys operate independently and doing it this way you can get all tasks accomplished

Permalink Reply by Wayne Benner Jr (Casper) on May 13, 2009 at 4:54pm

After taking a course in PPV & PPA I have come to the conclusion that those nice little fans can stay on the Truck. To many what ifs and questions that cant be answerd. PPA is only good if the building is closed to ideal conditions and last time looked there usally are none. High rise situations play a different role but for Single dwelling resident. Vent using others means not the PPV.

This is my opinion unless someone out there can change it. As i stated before be aggressive and get control of the fire and vent with tools other then the PPV> And rescue goes side by side of fire attack.

Permalink Reply by Joe Pantaleo on June 12, 2009 at 1:46pm

I have to 100% agree with this. I know that everyone operates differently, but the only time the PPV comes in for us is for burnt food on the stove, or when we're SURE that the fire is out. We have mostly balloon frame construction, and also have had a LODD in 1992 which a PPV contributed to. I know there is a proper way to use it to fight a fire, and there are many departments that use it very SUCCESSFULLY. I'm also not saying that we used it properly in 1992. As we know, if there are any victims between the fire and where the PPV is being vented to, we just killed them. Are we always 100% sure exactly where the fire is? Where the people are? Is it in the walls? Ceiling?

Wayne Benner Jr (Casper) said:

After taking a course in PPV & PPA I have come to the conclusion that those nice little fans can stay on the Truck. To many what ifs and questions that cant be answerd. PPA is only good if the building is closed to ideal conditions and last time looked there usally are none. High rise situations play a different role but for Single dwelling resident. Vent using others means not the PPV.

This is my opinion unless someone out there can change it. As i stated before be aggressive and get control of the fire and vent with tools other then the PPV> And rescue goes side by side of fire attack.

Permalink Reply by Josh Materi on June 14, 2009 at 6:45pm

Michael Bricault
Interested in how you feel about transitioning from a VES to an Oriented Search of floor 2 while your Driver/AO puts up ground ladders to the high target areas ahead of your Officer and tailboard fireman. Granted the conditions allow you to make the jump to the other bedrooms.
Also, you commented on VES not an entry technique, would you consider it as an entry technique if you felt as though the search of the target areas would be delayed due to access issues, either multiple companies operating in close quarters or conditions in the hallway (center hallway apartments)

Great discussion, Thanks

Michael Bricault said:

-Many respondents have noted or spoken to the value of VES as a viable technique for performing a primary search. Personally, I like VES, I use VES and I teach VES. That being said, VES is not a tactic for everyday use and it is certainly not an acceptable technique to substitute low/poor staffing.
-Some basic and necessary components for VES implementation are:
1. a know or highly suspected victim
2. the victim is in a known or highly suspected location.
-In other words, there is a High or Urgent Rescue Profile in one of the High Target Areas of the occupancy.
-A issue of much confusion about VES is that it is an entry technique, a point of entry to search a floor or area. In fact, VES is an aggressive search technique used to search a specific room only; a High Target Area. If conditions permit an extended search of the floor then you're not using VES your searching the floor. This point bears reiterating; VES is for conducting an aggressive search for a known victim (highly suspected and not just bystander information), in a High Target Area, a specific room only.
-VES is not a substitute for staffing but rather to be implemented under very specific conditions, usually by very experienced members working ahead of the attack line and in direct proximity to the fire, in order to search and effect the rescue of a known victim in a known location.

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault on June 16, 2009 at 12:20pm

-Mike, several respondents have mentioned the same option you propose in order to achieve all tactical objectives. The example creates a typical situation in which a choice must be made based on the safety of the firefighters and becasue of that all tactical objectives will not be achievable in a safe operational manner.
-I will reiterate a comment I made earlier in the discussion here in case it was missed.
-I understand that limitations in manpower cause us to become creative in our solutions and splitting a Truck company on scene to perform tasks is nothing new. However, splitting the company is based on available manpower and experience as well as risk vs. benefit.
-The reason the example question gave three men on the Ladder Company was to specifically create an environment of not being able to split the company due to safety constraints and performance efficiency. Sending one firefighter to the roof to accomplish vertical ventilation is dangerous in the extreme as well as not being practical from a work standpoint of achieving the objective in a timely fashion. Cutting the roof takes time and it will usually not happen quickly enough to be beneficial in anything but ballon frame construction or a fire inside the attic space. One man cutting will not provide results in a timely manner so as to matter to trapped victims.
-When there are not enough personnel available to accomplish suppression and rescue simultaneously, rescue must be given priority. When there are not enough personnel available to accomplish all necessary tasks, take those actions that protect the greatest number of lives. This is straight out of John Norman's Fire Officers Handbook of Tactics.
-In a High Rescue Profile Situation a wise tactical move would be to implement VES which is an aggressive tactic that will require all three Truck members to perform safely and efficiently.
-What must be considered and cannot be know given the limited information in the example is whether aggressive vertical ventilation will directly effect and protect those trapped based in their location within the structure.
-In this instance all resources and personnel from the Truck should be focused on performing a rapid search in order to carry out an aggressive rescue of trapped victims. All three members will be needed to quickly, properly and safely perform any rescue techniques to give the victim the best chance at survival. The game clock never stops for the victim. Delays in executing a rescue because of limited manpower means that the victim is denied medical attention while a poorly executed rescue effort takes place.
-Any member searching using VES techniques who discovers an unconscious adult victim will require assistance to perform the rescue. Those that say differently have never performed a VES rescue.
-This was a deliberately sticky example intended to create a situation in which one must make some very hard but realistic choices.
Michael Beilinson said:

3 guys is a very realistic truck crew in a voulenteer setting...If i was the boss for this I would split my crew i would have one guy go to the roof and get a good vent and i would have the chauf VES the rear and the boss go through the front door with the irons and bunny tool and would search....I come from an area that truck guys operate independently and doing it this way you can get all tasks accomplished

Permalink Reply by Michael Bricault on June 16, 2009 at 12:59pm

-VES is specifically intended to be used on a specific target room within the occupancy in which firefighters believe the victim to be located. In short, you know the victim is, "in that room right there". VES is not a launching point for a floor wide, oriented search.
-VES is to be used for a known or highly suspected victim that is in a known location, with said location usually being only just barely tenable.
-VES is a very specific tactic for a very specific problem in which there exists a trapped victim in a highly hazardous condition, in a hazardous location in direct proximity to a fire that is not being controlled.
-Unless the specific parameters are met VES should not be implemented.
-Using a ladder to create an access point from which to launch an oriented search above the fire is another animal altogether. This oriented search will not be initiated in direct proximity to the fire simply for the safety of the searching company. Not being directly above and remote from the fire on the floor below creates a safe launching point for an oriented search as well as an area of refuge to be retreated to in the event conditions change dramatically.
-The oriented search initiated from the ladder is a great search technique for the floor above the fire allowing for speed, flexibility, safety and organization on the part of the searchers providing that the oriented search is originated from an area of safety meaning no fire involvement, otherwise firefighters can become cut off.
-When performing an oriented search, unlike VES, a second ladder should be placed remote from the first ladder so as to create a secondary means of escape from the floor above the fire. Expeditiousness is essential and integral to VES and this does not allow for a secondary means of escape to be created.
-If firefighters execute a VES and discover no victims, it is not appropriate to extend the search from the VES target room. This is because if all VES parameters were met meaning, a known or highly suspected victim trapped in direct proximity to the fire that is not under control, and the victim cannot wait for fire suppression efforts and will surely die without immediate rescue... then these same conditions will not allow firefighters to exit the room into the remainder of the occupancy for a search in that specific area of the floor.

Josh Materi said:

Michael Bricault
Interested in how you feel about transitioning from a VES to an Oriented Search of floor 2 while your Driver/AO puts up ground ladders to the high target areas ahead of your Officer and tailboard fireman. Granted the conditions allow you to make the jump to the other bedrooms. Also, you commented on VES not an entry technique, would you consider it as an entry technique if you felt as though the search of the target areas would be delayed due to access issues, either multiple companies operating in close quarters or conditions in the hallway (center hallway apartments) Great discussion, Thanks

Michael Bricault said:

-Many respondents have noted or spoken to the value of VES as a viable technique for performing a primary search. Personally, I like VES, I use VES and I teach VES. That being said, VES is not a tactic for everyday use and it is certainly not an acceptable technique to substitute low/poor staffing.
-Some basic and necessary components for VES implementation are:
1. a known or highly suspected victim
2. the victim is in a known or highly suspected location.
-In other words, there is a High or Urgent Rescue Profile in one of the High Target Areas of the occupancy.
-A issue of much confusion about VES is that it is an entry technique, a point of entry to search a floor or area. In fact, VES is an aggressive search technique used to search a specific room only; a High Target Area. If conditions permit an extended search of the floor then you're not using VES your searching the floor. This point bears reiterating; VES is for conducting an aggressive search for a known victim (highly suspected and not just bystander information), in a High Target Area, a specific room only.
-VES is not a substitute for staffing but rather to be implemented under very specific conditions, usually by very experienced members working ahead of the attack line and in direct proximity to the fire, in order to search and effect the rescue of a known victim in a known location.

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